Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope)

[VitaTimH]



Well, I mean it in a few ways. The first and most pertinent to our tiny world is the exhaustive "curation" of web and B&M shops. Totokaelo is an example of this taken just about further than anything else - I'm guessing you know what I mean, so I won't try to list for more examples; but I find the practice boring and tiresome, particularly as the word has become ever-present on the internet in particular. Used to be that a "curator" had a role; now anyone with a tumblr is a curator of fashion/art/comics/whatever. The problem is that "curation" has come to mean "homogeneity," when it means anything at all. 

The more important aspect is that, I think, humans operate through analogy. Or at least interesting ones do. So looking beyond obvious connections both shows and inspires creative thinking. There are some semantic issues to deal with, since, you know - to a certain extent everything is curation. But some of the best (museum) exhibits I've ever seen approach curation from a standpoint that showcases collage, for example - referring to artists, media, time periods - rather than rote devotion to a period or school. By over-curating what we consume and what we display (as individuals or as businesses), we cut ourselves off from the better part of the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your problem is less with the act of curation per se and more with curation aimed at generating the widest appeal?

 

[accordion]

So I don't know how much this relates to fashion or with what Synthese wrote about but I think retailers are curators by default, and the more content there is in general, the more important curation becomes. A non fashion example is I don't have time to go through every magazine and newspaper to find out what's worth reading, so I read a bunch of portal sites that curate news and editorial content for me. They're not really presenting the content aside from summarizing the articles, but their selection embodies taste and value judgement I either trust or try to be aware of. Similarly, fashion shops pick, very selectively, from a sea of designers, whether due to their commercial or artistic appeal, and style and describe pieces to highlight their value.

If to narrow the definition of curation, then the only shop I've come across that also curates is http://endyma.com/collections/ . I think SP is the only NA retailer I buy from that has distinct taste and are successful enough apparently to maintain their selection, but then some of their newer brands have been carried by JP webstores for years now. I can see how it may become annoying when webshops make hipster photobooks and post music on their site (ssense), but in general, styling/presentation is part of their job, and I appreciate when they do it well. I agree that very few good retailers are good curators, but mostly because retailers have to make money above preserving and presenting cultural objects unlike museums. Their tastes may be boring due to financial constraint. I like that Totokaelo stocks Dries and Haider Akerman. In a place other than NYC/LA and to people who don't have fifty webshops bookmarked, they are pretty cool. They might get killed in New York though. DSM/lagarconne might be good comparisons selection wise. Barneys has the entire toto lineup but that's not surprising.

Also, this gets brought up a lot in this thread, specifically when the new Atelier revealed their selection. As consumers we always want retailers/buyers to push and expand our tastes. But it's very difficult for B&M shops to remain distinct yet profitable, and I imagine especially so for a really ambitious store like Toto. I think they hit a pretty nice spot between mass/individual taste. I mean yes they carry Rick/Margiela/CP/Geller, but they also have yohji/haider/dries which most shops that carry the aforementioned brands don't have. They post measurements, take nice, big pictures and allow comments on their site which I don't think I've seen before. Like I'd feel pretty cool if I shopped there.

actually now that I look at I can see how their selection makes no sense but it's w/e, plenty of worse shops.

 

[LA Guy]

What do you feel about Idol Brooklyn? I feel their philosophy is the polar opposite of Totokaelo's -- they just buy whatever the **** they think is cool, regardless of whether it's "in" or not. I can't see Human Made stuff selling well at all, but one of the owners really digs the brand so he stocks it every season. They stock more visvim clothes (vs. footwear) than many other NA retailers and it doesn't sell that well, but again, it's stuff the owners like.

I've never bought anything from the webstore, nor have I ever visited the physical location, but from what I've seen from the webstore, I like it a lot more. I like the mix of street and high fashion and that they buy color. The identity of the store intrigues me a lot more. I would certainly be more likely to shop there, but I do feel that part of that is just because it has a lot more of that street element that I like.

I really wish that there were more stores like No Man Walks Alone, where you can find Formosa suits next to Monitaly next to Stephan Schneider. It is surprising and seems random, but because the owner and buyers have high taste levels, the store can be many different, but all coherent, things.

 

[Synthese]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your problem is less with the act of curation per se and more with curation aimed at generating the widest appeal?

No, it's with the reduction of curation to the pursuit of homogeneity - in all things, but in our case in the realm of clothing retail.

 

[msg]

Yes, but clothing retail needs to make money. And in some cases, the need is to make a lot of money, to pay the rent on your expensive retail space, for example. Homogeneity is safety.

Other than the obnoxiousness of the word curation, I'm not sure there's a viable alternative to the principal underlying the word that would allow a retailer success. Toto, Steven Alan, etc can't afford to buy, discount, and warehouse clothes at the scale of Nordstrom or Barneys. So they "curate" for safety.

 

[LA Guy]

i'm thinking to attend this, though the shah or king of kings or his eminence would be far too formal and such arrogance isn't befitting, especially if you're not making the tags out of $13,760/sheet paper from the shop in germany with gold lettering etc. i could wear my robe, that's pretty regal. milk bar is wack... which loft ?

most stores that resort to that type of template (mohawk general being another) seem to have the online shops as fronts presenting a much grandeur image of what they actually are. i haven't been to the toto shop itself but it's pretty boring online and i imagine it's worse in person -- i have a friend who's been and said as much. i'll probably find out when in nyc...one thing about toto is the great customer service experience, but that's a separate issue altogether.

Gary's Loft (www.garysloft.com). We have the penthouse suite. Milk Bar is okay. I know that people like it. I liked the truffle donuts or whatever, but I agree that it generally left me cold. For me, NYC and San Fran are full of places like that. They have this incredible rep, and people go bananas over them, and in the end, it's... okay, but not truly awesome. I guess that NYC is just one Supreme drop after another. If you have better suggestions, I'm all ears.

I visited Mohawk women in Pasadena. It was okay, but not amazing. That was earlier this summer, and it had all the silhouettes that are in for women right now. High waisted pants. Cropped flowy blouses or really long oversized ones. A bunch of A lined stuff. Some high waisted skinny denim. W/E.

I mean yes they carry Rick/Margiela/CP/Geller, but they also have yohji/haider/dries which most shops that carry the aforementioned brands don't have. They post measurements, take nice, big pictures and allow comments on their site which I don't think I've seen before. Like I'd feel pretty cool if I shopped there.

actually now that I look at I can see how their selection makes no sense but it's w/e, plenty of worse shops.

The selection makes absolute sense. It's a list of all the cool brands de jour. "Oh, cool black clothes with a little bit of "ethnic" in the blend. ******* yippee kay yay. There is nothing surprising or uncool or idiosyncratic about the place. I could go on a megastore like The Corner or a generically nice department store like Barneys and get the same brand mix. I think that the store would be more interesting if it had something like Chrome Hearts or RRL or Roberto Cavalli in there, so that I would at least be like "wtf is going on here? What was the owner thinking?" That would be interesting. As it is, both the webstore and the physical store (at least, the one in Seattle), I walk into, and I know right away "Okay, yeah, this store is for cool people who like Paris more than Milan"

I want a store that takes me on a journey. A store that shows me that the proprietors are not looking for a "coherent identity". I want a pirates treasure room of cool stuff from all over, not a hipster hideout with a lot of blond wood and white walls and some black and chrome furniture.

Incidentally, I think that if a shop is to have a "coherent point of view", at least make it interesting and not just what is cool right now. That's one of the reasons that I really like Self Edge.

 

[LA Guy]

Yes, but clothing retail needs to make money. And in some cases, the need is to make a lot of money, to pay the rent on your expensive retail space, for example. Homogeneity is safety.

Other than the obnoxiousness of the word curation, I'm not sure there's a viable alternative to the principal underlying the word that would allow a retailer success. Toto, Steven Alan, etc can't afford to buy, discount, and warehouse clothes at the scale of Nordstrom or Barneys. So they "curate" for safety.

Homogeneity is the opposite of safety. If there is nothing surprising or interesting about your store, why would I buy anything from you? Why wouldn't I just go to Barneys? Or TheCorner, where returns are easy and hassle free.

 

[msg]



Homogeneity is the opposite of safety.  If there is nothing surprising or interesting about your store, why would I buy anything from you?  Why wouldn't I just go to Barneys?  Or TheCorner, where returns are easy and hassle free.  

Well, we know 40% of their business is b&m. Is that typical?

I wonder how many people buying online from them are aware of the alternative online options. Where does someone learn about The Corner or Yoox?

I agree with what you're pointing out - which is why I'm skeptical about NYC success - but I wonder whether your preferences as a consumer would result in a successful business. There's clearly still money to be made by being safe. Until Bezos steps in and kills the margin on retail for everyone.

 

[LA Guy]

Well, we know 40% of their business is b&m. Is that typical?

I wonder how many people buying online from them are aware of the alternative online options. Where does someone learn about The Corner or Yoox?

I agree with what you're pointing out - which is why I'm skeptical about NYC success - but I wonder whether your preferences as a consumer would result in a successful business. There's clearly still money to be made by being safe. Until Bezos steps in and kills the margin on retail for everyone.

For stores with a well built out webstore, very typical. I know that we have affiliate vendors that are predominantly online, even thoug they have physical locations. Even for stores without well know webstores, I am usually told 20-30% of their business is online. Online is the one sector in retail that growing year after year.

The Yoox group is a billon dollar business. They have marketing spends out the wazoo. They have huge advertising spends. All the ads on my browser are Yoox/The Corner and Rakuten retargets. I think that they spend a few bucks marketing to just me every day. If someone is interested in clothes, and shop online, chances are they know about Yoox.

My personal preferences would result in a disaster. I am a very niche customer. That said, there are plenty of successful retailers that have a more eclectic approach to buying. That goes from very large groups like Flannels to a much smaller operation like The Bureau.

 

[winston86dit]

60 percent of Toto's customers, from what I have been told, all hail from NY thus the new store opening. Most likely, the B&M in Seattle will close and the office there will still stay in tact (cheaper rent/warehouse space as well as salaries for employees).

I agree the store is bland. I think it started with good intentions and to be something different, especially by Seattle standards but at some point the vision became so broad it ceased to have any impact. It got lost in the fray. There are so many good online stores, and for ones that carry EVERY "it" brand, I would much rather look at MrPorter or Net-A-Porter.

Agree with you LA guy, I really only like to shop at retail stores that are exciting and it pushes something a little different. Or it at least has an interesting point of view. I think Union is a good example of this. I always end up seeing or stumbling upon something interesting and that store is 1/4 of the size of most others. DSM is another. Sarah's curation over at Colette is always kooky and fun as well.

 

[accordion]

I think we often forget how small of a niche SF streetwear and online men's fashion is overall. People get ripped on for wanting CP achilles. I imagine posters walking into Acne/CP clad yuppies and hipsters everyday, at work, on their way to home. I've seen Common Projects less than five times since I've become aware of them, this is in cities, suburbs, schools, in different countries, at social events with asian kids who drop all their spending money on clothes. I would guess the kind of people who browse fashion forums, as a whole, are so few and have so little spending power compared to other types of clientele and women especially that there is zero reason for retailers to cater to niche or good taste. If a shop has cool buys they probably just do it for art's sake. I've never been to Barneys/Bergdorf but I went to all the smaller stores in New York mainly cuz I thought the SAs there would know more about their selection and have better suggestions. This wasn't true for the most part but I would still buy something that Barneys has from a smaller store provided prices are similar because of the more personal and personalized experience. Not that I have super good taste or anything but the fact Toto carries Dries always made them cool to me since I've never seen it online (besides Mohawk) outside of mega sites that have very little info and pictures of the pieces.

Also, what are some webshops similar to Toto that you guys think have good taste and presentation, if Toto not being one of them? DSM I agree, is lagarconne better? IF had a bunch of cool stuff but it was really unorganized and they don't have webshop. DSM's webshop is crappy. I've been to the I.Ts in China and they basically had a bit of everything that was cool but very little of anything.

 

[Find Finn]

Every time I see the word Toto, I think of bum washing toilets.

 

[LA Guy]



I think we often forget how small of a niche SF streetwear and online men's fashion is overall. People get ripped on for wanting CP achilles. I imagine posters walking into Acne/CP clad yuppies and hipsters everyday, at work, on their way to home. I've seen Common Projects less than five times since I've become aware of them, this is in cities, suburbs, schools, in different countries, at social events with asian kids who drop all their spending money on clothes. I would guess the kind of people who browse fashion forums, as a whole, are so few and have so little spending power compared to other types of clientele and women especially that there is zero reason for retailers to cater to niche or good taste. If a shop has cool buys they probably just do it for art's sake. I've never been to Barneys/Bergdorf but I went to all the smaller stores in New York mainly cuz I thought the SAs there would know more about their selection and have better suggestions. This wasn't true for the most part but I would still buy something that Barneys has from a smaller store provided prices are similar because of the more personal and personalized experience. Not that I have super good taste or anything but the fact Toto carries Dries always made them cool to me since I've never seen it online (besides Mohawk) outside of mega sites that have very little info and pictures of the pieces.

Also, what are some webshops similar to Toto that you guys think have good taste and presentation, if Toto not being one of them? DSM I agree, is lagarconne better? IF had a bunch of cool stuff but it was really unorganized and they don't have webshop. DSM's webshop is crappy. I've been to the I.Ts in China and they basically had a bit of everything that was cool but very little of anything.

What general style are you looking for?

 

[accordion]

I don't...really know, just anything that looks interesting. No pure dark artisan or denim/workwear shops, anything in between is okay.

 

[LA Guy]



I don't...really know, just anything that looks interesting. No pure dark artisan or denim/workwear shops, anything in between is okay.

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