SPIER & MACKAY - Official Affiliate Thread

[1st Step]

Comment -- With all due respect, it seems like you had odd expectations for an off the rack suit fitting you as if it was custom made for you.
Answer -- No, my expectations were that it would fit as well as a Dillard's otr, which it did not. Since my bar was set low, and the S&M otr did not meet those expectations, that is unfortunate.

Comment -- As well IMO, I would not rely on internet/google advice for measurements based on something as general as height, when there can be so much variance in proportions between individuals.
Answer -- The only measurement that was to my liking was the measurement I Googled, so this would be contrary to the result achieved.

Comment -- You’d be much better off taking your actual measurements and comparing those to the measurement charts to get a good fit.
Answer -- I did take my own measurements and did compare those to the size chart. I also wanted to try on an off the rack suit jacket that fit in person at a department store to ensure measurements I took weren't off base.

Comment -- Needing alterations to an OTR suit (sleeve length, waist, hemming) is to be mostly expected if your body measurements dictate, unless you are lucky enough to perfectly fit the base pattern.
Answer -- Yes, we know.

Overall -- My original post was sound. I wouldn't buy an OTR S&M only to pay to have it altered which may vary in cost by region. Better to pay more for a custom trouser and jacket to get the sizing dialed in from the beginning and avoid wasted time and money.

PICTURES PLEASE, Pictures!

 

[breakaway01]

Not going to hijack this thread as I have more respect for the forum posters than to bother with this overmuch other than to say, if you're on Styleforum, have that many messages on record, and have never seen an advert for high-end menswear featuring Brian, then I'd be surprised. I trust someone who has made a living on wearing the best suits in the world, similarly to how you respect more experts in any field over a random person.

OK, yes, it does make sense to look for advice from 'experts'. But if we're going to go that route (and not saying that I trust anyone else to tell me what size trouser hem works best for my build)

Simon Crompton of Permanent Style -- around 15"

Permanent Style

Suit Style 8: Trouser measurements, style and proportions

www.permanentstyle.com

Derek of Die! Workwear - around 15.5-16 "

How wide do you like your leg opening on dress trousers?

I imagine shoe size matters, but what is your go to for dress trousers.

www.styleforum.net

and note that on that poll, 81% of respondents picked a width larger than 14"

Mark Cho of the Armoury -- 15-16"

Want to highlight this:
"In general, we put 7.5" to 9" leg openings on the vast majority of our customers. When deciding the leg opening, we take into account not just shoe size but also the general shape of the leg and how a trouser should fit it. The most commonly flattering shape is a slight taper, just enough to suggest the shape of the leg. It shouldn’t be so slim or tapered that it leaves nothing to the imagination."

Anyhow, welcome and I hope the discussion is helpful. Looking at Brian Sacawa's site, I can see why many might find his style appealing. But IMO I think he'd look better if his trousers weren't as tight. Not just in the leg but also across the top block/hips.

 

[Potatoe]

Sigh... Yes... Brands differ in sizing, OTR often requires alterations, etc.

The point of my post is that people looking to buy from S&M may be better off going MTM straight on, rather than OTR since the OTR for some may fit worse than others, but the MTM program is [ostensibly] good. That was my conclusion on the post -- probably better off not wasting time and money on OTR and just buy MTM.

Wouldn't the better strategy be to buy 3 to 5 jackes OTR and keep the one that fits the best?

Then do alterations and go MTM once you have it dialed in.

Personally I think measuring yourself and going straight MTM is going to end badly. I suspect you will be here complaining about your shirt.

 

[Proleet]

Sigh... Yes... Brands differ in sizing, OTR often requires alterations, etc.

The point of my post is that people looking to buy from S&M may be better off going MTM straight on, rather than OTR since the OTR for some may fit worse than others, but the MTM program is [ostensibly] good. That was my conclusion on the post -- probably better off not wasting time and money on OTR and just buy MTM.

How is this different from any other brand? You think they make worse fitting OTR than the typical department store brand? It apparently didn’t fit you but the reverse surely applies to tons of people. Sure they have a certain aesthetic and several builds that might not be for everyone but imo they are more accessible than say a suitsupply. And mtm is definitely not the best choice for lots of people....

 

[JohnMRobie]

Personally I think measuring yourself and going straight MTM is going to end badly. I suspect you will be here complaining about your shirt.

At least we’ll have the popcorn ready by then

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Not going to hijack this thread as I have more respect for the forum posters than to bother with this overmuch other than to say, if you're on Styleforum, have that many messages on record, and have never seen an advert for high-end menswear featuring Brian, then I'd be surprised. I trust someone who has made a living on wearing the best suits in the world, similarly to how you respect more experts in any field over a random person.

imo he has not worn the 'best suits' in the world. Just saying. I think Simon over at PS arguably can say he has worn some of the, subjectively, 'best suits in the world.'

 

[apd90700]

To pile on. Anyone who says anything along the lines of
X leg opening for someone x height is not telling the whole story. To say that a certain hem width is set by height doesn’t take into account the wearers waist, shoe size (very important to have a balanceleg opening) leg length compared to torso etc.

Is akin to posters who say things like, I have a 15 inch neck and weigh 155, what size S&M jacket do I wear?

Also, it’s extremely rare that at an OTR suit will not need adjustments to sleeve length....

Brian didn't say x leg opening for x height, so we're all in agreement. The phenomenon we're seeing in this thread is that no one is allowed to give constructive criticism. I'll provide criticism if it seems relevant. I'd expect to get an OTR suit tailored if needed, did it come across that I didn't expect that?

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Brian also spun the bs that Paul Evans shoes offer quality of shoes costing 4-5 times as much...don’t believe any random blogger’s bs. Just me 2 cts...

yes i remember a bunch of shoe brands (cut out the middleman!) starting popping up left and right after jack erwin came onto the scene. every brand starting naming themselves with two names (paul + evans.... jack + erwin... grant + stone ... beckett + simonon... etc. lol) and always sung the same praises about being handmade in italy (or not... maybe somewhere else) with the best leathers blah blah blah.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Brian didn't say x leg opening for x height, so we're all in agreement. The phenomenon we're seeing in this thread is that no one is allowed to give constructive criticism. I'll provide criticism if it seems relevant. I'd expect to get an OTR suit tailored if needed, did it come across that I didn't expect that?

You didn’t give constructive criticism. You complained that it didn’t fit how you wanted it to. As for your question about whether you looked like you were complaining about tailoring? Let’s roll the tape:

Tried a clearance Suit in 38s. Went to Dillards the weekend before ordering from S&M to make sure the off the rack 38s in suit jackets fit me. Unfortunately the S&M 38s contemporary didn't fit very well -- sleeve is about .5-1.5" long, the waist of the jacket isn't tapered at all [doesn't conform to my frame, very tent like], and the pant beyond being too wide in the waist by about 2.5", it's also billowy in the leg -- probably need to bring the thigh width in about 3" and the hem about 2" -- which the slim offering wouldn't have done based on the trouser customization screen for 32". Even if I had gone with the slim fitting option, there would have needed to be alterations done after the fact looks like -- predicated on the custom trouser screen. I'm thinking the jacket might have been somewhat acceptable in a slim 38s, but the sleeve length would have been too long, and the waist may have required alterations as well. I did request the trousers be hemmed to 27.5" [Google recommendations were 27" at my height, and I believe the 27" is accurate for no break, so it'd be what I go with next], and having the requested 27.5" inseam was the best fitting measurement of the suit jacket/trouser combination. Best feature of the off the rack offering was the Navy Sharkskin material in S120 which is very nice, with good luster, drape and hand.

Overall, I would probably not buy an off the rack from S&M again, and would have opted to first buy a pair of trousers customized to measurements I specify. This way I have the control over the item dimensions since off the rack doesn't fit like most would want [form fitting]. In total the suit is not fashionably wearable without heavy alterations -- if you wanted to look like someone who buys ill-fitting off the rack clothing you probably wouldn't be reading styleforum posts .

As a caveat emptor, for those looking at the trouser customization. Going based on Brian Sacawa's Hespoke recommendation, hem should be 13-14" for someone 5'9" [I'm 5'7"], and the slim trouser offering from S&M requires you go to a 29" default measurement for the utility to allow a 13.5" hem, you could go 30" with 13.7", but worth noting. If you really want to dial in your actual measurements to form fit, you may need to drop the perceived waist measurement below what you actually wear to allow the utility to select the measurements for a given spec [would be a good site update to correct this] -- 31" waist is my usual fit for store off the rack.

Comment -- With all due respect, it seems like you had odd expectations for an off the rack suit fitting you as if it was custom made for you.
Answer -- No, my expectations were that it would fit as well as a Dillard's otr, which it did not. Since my bar was set low, and the S&M otr did not meet those expectations, that is unfortunate.

Comment -- As well IMO, I would not rely on internet/google advice for measurements based on something as general as height, when there can be so much variance in proportions between individuals.
Answer -- The only measurement that was to my liking was the measurement I Googled, so this would be contrary to the result achieved.

Comment -- You’d be much better off taking your actual measurements and comparing those to the measurement charts to get a good fit.
Answer -- I did take my own measurements and did compare those to the size chart. I also wanted to try on an off the rack suit jacket that fit in person at a department store to ensure measurements I took weren't off base.

Comment -- Needing alterations to an OTR suit (sleeve length, waist, hemming) is to be mostly expected if your body measurements dictate, unless you are lucky enough to perfectly fit the base pattern.
Answer -- Yes, we know.

Overall -- My original post was sound. I wouldn't buy an OTR S&M only to pay to have it altered which may vary in cost by region. Better to pay more for a custom trouser and jacket to get the sizing dialed in from the beginning and avoid wasted time and money.

You bought a suit assuming the measurements would be the same as a random unnamed brand at Dillards, want a suit that is too slim and probably doesn’t fit you (there’s plenty of brands that sell that and would gladly put you in a suit a size too small) and then here to complain about it. There wasn’t anything constructive about anything you said. We tried to point out how you could have a better experience (by measuring, by not assuming the same size in every single brand should be the same, that every brand should have a cut you want) and learn.

 

[Potatoe]

The phenomenon we're seeing in this thread is that no one is allowed to give constructive criticism. I'll provide criticism if it seems relevant.

It was probably about 10 pages back where I stated quite clearly that those linen Safari jackets were ugly as hell. I got very little push back because people either agreed (Based!) or they chalked it up to personal taste.

You are getting push back because you took a silly approach to sizing and when it (predictably) didn't work out you blamed the vendor (even though it's totally your own fault).

The tone of your posts has also been very aggressive and you speak as someone who knows what they are doing, when clearly you don't.

Everyone who mostly buys cloths online (especially tailored jackets) knows that when you start with a new brand you buy a bunch of different sizes, and then return everything that doesn't fit.

This is the way.

 

[apd90700]

View attachment 1599757
You didn’t give constructive criticism. You complained that it didn’t fit how you wanted it to. As for your question about whether you looked like you were complaining about tailoring? Let’s roll the tape:


View attachment 1599754
You bought a suit assuming the measurements would be the same as a random unnamed brand at Dillards, want a suit that is too slim and probably doesn’t fit you (there’s plenty of brands that sell that and would gladly put you in a suit a size too small) and then here to complain about it. There wasn’t anything constructive about anything you said. We tried to point out how you could have a better experience (by measuring, by not assuming the same size in every single brand should be the same, that every brand should have a cut you want) and learn.

Comment -- You didn’t give constructive criticism. You complained that it didn’t fit how you wanted it to. As for your question about whether you looked like you were complaining about tailoring?
Response -- I'll say this does appear as complaining -- if the reader is cynical. "My original post was sound. I wouldn't buy an OTR S&M only to pay to have it altered which may vary in cost by region. Better to pay more for a custom trouser and jacket to get the sizing dialed in from the beginning and avoid wasted time and money." Since I was giving my overall opinion as closing remarks on the value proposition of S&M OTR, and have the money to get the suit tailored [as I'm sure everyone here does], or just a MTM from the beginning, I'd go MTM since it's possibly a better value to me as my time is more valuable than the money. Since your opinion [and sounds like the thread's opinion] is that I'm just here to complain, there's no need to rebuff it, you'll believe what you want, that's you're opinion, I don't need to attack it.

Comment -- You bought a suit assuming the measurements would be the same as a random unnamed brand at Dillards...
Response -- No, as mentioned in the later response I went to Dillards to ensure the measurements I made on myself were in fact size appropriate by further verifying that a jacket it landed me on would fit closest. This way I had two factor authenticated my sizing before making an OTR purchase at S&M.

Comment -- ...(there’s plenty of brands that sell that and would gladly put you in a suit a size too small)...
Response -- Ad hominem... Open forum disrespect for no reason.

Comment -- There wasn’t anything constructive about anything you said. We tried to point out how you could have a better experience (by measuring, by not assuming the same size in every single brand should be the same, that every brand should have a cut you want)....
Response -- "As a caveat emptor, for those looking at the trouser customization. Going based on Brian Sacawa's Hespoke recommendation, hem should be 13-14" for someone 5'9" [I'm 5'7"], and the slim trouser offering from S&M requires you go to a 29" default measurement for the utility to allow a 13.5" hem, you could go 30" with 13.7", but worth noting. If you really want to dial in your actual measurements to form fit, you may need to drop the perceived waist measurement below what you actually wear to allow the utility to select the measurements for a given spec [would be a good site update to correct this] -- 31" waist is my usual fit for store off the rack." Literally giving recommendation that would allow users who are MTMing trousers to not have to downsize the waist measurement below what they wear in order to have option to reduce the sizing of things like the hem.

Overall I'll say that there are a lot of people more angry at me for posting criticism than I am at being openly disrespected by you. Are we not gentlemen here? Decorum and urbane humility is requisite. I admit in response #1 above that the comment could very easily be construed in a way it was taken, which shows urbane humility, have I been shown decorum?

 

[JayDee90]

This forum has the ability to quote previous posts btw...

 

[Ebichuman]

I enjoy these conversations. I don’t expect to learn much from them, especially when the OP digs his heels in, but they are entertaining.

 

[apd90700]

I'll be here all week .

Make sure to tip your waitress.

 

[JayDee90]

I enjoy these conversations. I don’t expect to learn much from them, especially when the OP digs his heels in, but they are entertaining.

Also the most Latin I have heard all day/week/month..maybe I am just not that cultured...