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seems like people still have unrealistic expections on muscle growth: solution within

not_a_virus.exe

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"Bigger Faster Stronger" - watch it if you haven't already seen this documentary. it amazes me that people still think that arnold schwartzenegger was natural like the models in fitness magazines lol. if you're still clueless, practically everyone in the industry is on drugs, e.g. anabolic steroids. much of people's unrealistic expectations are set by drug-users and advice tailored for drug-users. personally, i don't have a problem with people using drugs - i just have a problem when they try to hide it or worse, flat out lie about it. i also personally don't use it because the gains are only maintained through continued drug use; in other words, there is no muscle memory unlike the gains you get from going natural.
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CunningSmeagol

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Great documentary. Thanks for posting it. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's a worthwhile watch.

However, very few people on this board, if any, really think that Arnold was natural, or have any respect at all for fitness magazines and the advice they give. I'm unclear if you're targeting people here with your OP; I guess I'll assume you are since you posted it here.

I think the real problem you have with people here is your claim that eating more in conjunction with lifting doesn't help you grow.
 

not_a_virus.exe

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Eating more doesn't help you grow muscle. While it's likely that there's a caloric requirement for muscle growth, it doesn't matter where the calories come from, whether it be from food or body fat reserves. The logical fallacy is twofold: 1. I ate above BMR and I got bigger. Well, yes, EVERYONE will get get bigger if they increased the layer of fat above their muscle AS WELL as increasing the amount of visceral fat WITHIN and BELOW the muscle. The logical fallacy is assuming that an increase in body size must only mean an increase in muscle growth. 2. I increased my caloric intake and got stronger and bigger. Well, that doesn't mean you couldn't have achieved the same results if you ate less too. The science is well established that muscle growth is mostly about the quality of your workouts (given that you are also eating a rolling daily average of 70-120 grams of protein). Unless you're super shredded, you'll have more than enough body fat to supply your muscles with the necessary calories for growth. There's a lot of confusion between the relationship between energy, strength, and growth too, but I digress. People have asked me for examples of people who eat below BMR and can still grow muscle. I'm hesitant to provide examples because it can easily start a slippery slope of supporting arguments with anecdotal evidence, but just to humor you guys... What these contestants achieved in a 3-month period: http://www.adonisindex.com/adonis-tr...ers-announced/ http://www.adonisindex.com/adonis-tr...st-competitors Nonetheless, scientific evidence > anecdotal evidence, but at least the anecdotal evidence above should be a point of interest for further investigation for doubters.
 

not_a_virus.exe

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if most people on SF are already aware that the industry standards, expectations, and precedents are set by drug users, then we're already a notch above the masses. most people in my experience are completely oblivious to this. however, i have seen people here (not naming any names) cite examples and arguments that suggest otherwise.

bravo to those who know to refer to science rather than industry marketing executives.
 

not_a_virus.exe

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the bottom line though is that eating more won't hurt your gains, but it's not necessary, and if you eat above maintenance, you'll also grow a layer of fat. and that layer of fat gives the illusion of increased muscle growth.

also, the caveat is that a severe caloric deficit can decrease energy in the gym which is obviously not desired, so you may have to do some trial and error to see how much of a deficit you can handle.
 

Achilles_

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Originally Posted by not_a_virus.exe
Eating more doesn't help you grow muscle. While it's likely that there's a caloric requirement for muscle growth, it doesn't matter where the calories come from, whether it be from food or body fat reserves.

The logical fallacy is twofold:

1. I ate above BMR and I got bigger. Well, yes, EVERYONE will get get bigger if they increased the layer of fat above their muscle AS WELL as increasing the amount of visceral fat WITHIN and BELOW the muscle. The logical fallacy is assuming that an increase in body size must only mean an increase in muscle growth.

2. I increased my caloric intake and got stronger and bigger. Well, that doesn't mean you could have achieved the same results if you ate less too.

The science is well established that muscle growth is mostly about the quality of your workouts (given that you are also eating a rolling daily average of 70-120 grams of protein). Unless you're super shredded, you'll have more than enough body fat to supply your muscles with the necessary calories for growth.

There's a lot of confusion between the relationship between energy, strength, and growth too, but I digress. The bottom line though is that eating more won't hurt your gains, but it's not necessary, and if you eat above maintenance, you'll also grow a layer of fat. And that layer of fat gives the illusion of increased muscle growth. Also, the caveat is that a severe caloric deficit can decrease energy in the gym which is obviously not desired, so you may have to do some trial and error to see how much of a deficit you can handle.

People have asked me for examples of people who eat below BMR and can still grow muscle. I'm hesitant to provide examples because it can easily start a slippery slope of supporting arguments with anecdotal evidence, but just to humor you guys...

What these contestants achieved in a 3-month period:
http://www.adonisindex.com/adonis-tr...ers-announced/
http://www.adonisindex.com/adonis-tr...st-competitors

Nonetheless, scientific evidence > anecdotal evidence, but at least the anecdotal evidence above should be a point of interest for further investigation for doubters.



This is a really well put together post reminiscent of my days at bb.com

Are you a nutritionist or just someone interested in nutrition and training?
 

not_a_virus.exe

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Originally Posted by Achilles_
This is a really well put together post reminiscent of my days at bb.com

Are you a nutritionist or just someone interested in nutrition and training?

lol this is the opposite of bb.com.

and i'm a trash collector pretending to be a nutritionist on the internet. obviously.
 

Achilles_

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Originally Posted by not_a_virus.exe
lol this is the opposite of bb.com.

and i'm a trash collector pretending to be a nutritionist on the internet. obviously.


Not the information necessarily but the way that its well thought out I should say
 

not_a_virus.exe

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"well thought out" and "bb.com" is an oxymoron. if you can't discern the difference between a logical and an illogical argument, that's not my fault. most people can't, and that's why most people are so easily suckered, whether it be with health & fitness, fashion, audiophilia, religion, politics, news & media, the paranormal/supernatural, etc.
 

Unbreakable

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Interesting article on stronglifts.com about Arnold, but I'm sure a lot of people here have already checked it out.

http://stronglifts.com/arnold-schwar...-build-muscle/



The pic of him and coleman is eye opening to me, I think Arnold is in every way superior to coleman by that pic. Skip the thickness and scariness of coleman lol
 

not_a_virus.exe

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I didn't read the entire article, but I agree that it's nuts to dismiss Arnie just because he took steroids. It still takes hard work to get that physique. It was steroids that just gave him the potential to get that kind of unnatural physique. Steroids also get a lot of unnecessary bad rep (the documentary covers this, by the way).
 

Gibonius

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Originally Posted by Unbreakable
Interesting article on stronglifts.com about Arnold, but I'm sure a lot of people here have already checked it out.

http://stronglifts.com/arnold-schwar...-build-muscle/

The media these days hypes the power and necessity of steroids way too much. Most untrained or casually trained people think everyone that's big and strong used gear, and they don't have high standards for "big" or "strong." You hear about how A-Rod must have used roids when he was 17 and went from a 150 lbs to 315 lbs bench press in a year. You hear about how 220 lbs guys "have" to be using to get so huge.

It's just stupid, people who have never trained seriously in their life just use "I'm not using steroids" as an excuse to not be in shape.

The pic of him and coleman is eye opening to me, I think Arnold is in every way superior to coleman by that pic. Skip the thickness and scariness of coleman lol
Modern guys are just abominations, the judging is so screwed up. I like the idea of bodybuilding being about making yourself an ideal masculine form, not just as freakishly huge as possible.
 

Unbreakable

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Originally Posted by Gibonius
The media these days hypes the power and necessity of steroids way too much. Most untrained or casually trained people think everyone that's big and strong used gear, and they don't have high standards for "big" or "strong." You hear about how A-Rod must have used roids when he was 17 and went from a 150 lbs to 315 lbs bench press in a year. You hear about how 220 lbs guys "have" to be using to get so huge.

It's just stupid, people who have never trained seriously in their life just use "I'm not using steroids" as an excuse to not be in shape.


Modern guys are just abominations, the judging is so screwed up. I like the idea of bodybuilding being about making yourself an ideal masculine form, not just as freakishly huge as possible.


I thought A-Rod admitted to using juice? The thing with steroids, as with anything is, misinformation, which leads to misuse.
 

Gibonius

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Originally Posted by Unbreakable
I thought A-Rod admitted to using juice? The thing with steroids, as with anything is, misinformation, which leads to misuse.
Oh, A-Rod absolutely used steroids, but in his late 20s, not in high school. My point was that his performance as a high schooler is not unreasonable, but people were running around using it as evidence of his "obvious" roid usage. He wasn't even big when he was juicing, by standards of people who lift seriously.
 

Unbreakable

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Originally Posted by Gibonius
Oh, A-Rod absolutely used steroids, but in his late 20s, not in high school. My point was that his performance as a high schooler is not unreasonable, but people were running around using it as evidence of his "obvious" roid usage. He wasn't even big when he was juicing, by standards of people who lift seriously.

kk, gotcha. I guess that makes it misinformation on both sides lol!

Yeah thats not a freakishly huge gain, most who are first timers and dedicated see gains like that a lot.

but yeah, ignorance.
 

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