NBA 2009-2010 Season Thread

[chronoaug]

Wade's game isn't that refined still. His variety on offense is far less than his contemporaries in dirk, kobe, durant. Wade is a monster on defense? Are you saying this because of steals and blocks? Because those don't measure defense really just playing the passing lanes. Remember when larry hughes led the NBA in steals or was like top 2-3 in steals for 2seasons in a row? Hughes is far from a great defender he just gambles. Gilbert is an awful defender but when healthy always is in the top 5 in steals. Wade is good but hardly a very refined player. He is a bigger, stronger, better allen iverson in a way. Which is saying a lot actually. Wade is a monster in terms of athleticism and the strength he has at his size is almost unparalleled. Not many other 6'3-6'4 guys who are fast/quick enough to just speed by people and then take contact from a powerforward, maintain trajectory and midair balance and still finish with a controlled shot/layup Dunking isn't the only measure of athleticism/strength as RFX said. Kobe is a good example and jordan didn't dunk a lot his last 2 seasons in chicago. As someone who saw a lot of magic games, this is only one of the hilariously bad anthony johnson dunks. I wish more were on youtube. There was one i remember where he compeltely faced someone and the bench lost their ****
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TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. About wade though, i do wonder how his game will carry over to his 30s not just with a lack of outside shooting game, but also the wear on his body is so great because he sacrifices it so much. Like with iverson we saw that losing a half step here and there or being a bit more timid about recklessly attacking the basket, really made a huuggee impact. Without the threat of being able to take anyone in the nba hard to the hole, the 17ft jumpers that wade can hit (same with iverson) start to close a bit and the shots become a lot more difficult. A 23year old wall/rose will be able to keep a 32 year old wade in front of them so they can afford to play up on him more and take away that shot while also impeding his lane to the basket. At the moment a 27 (?) year old wade going up against a 33 year old paul pierce or vince carter obviously wade has the advantage and can play those 2 guys close as well. Though pierce has adapted nicely and has a good strength/post game now taking advantage of his size

 

[Brothersport]

Originally Posted by RFX45

When I think of athleticism, I think of speed, vertical, strength, etc... and Manu doesn't really posses any of those. I still say he is frail and weak even healthy, maybe it's due to his flopping and thats why I think he is weak. He can take a bump when driving and still finish, so I guess you can say that is strength or maybe just great concentration. Strength-wise though, you really compare him to those who are really strong like even say Joe Johnson or Billups. I won't mention Lebron or Dwight in comparison because those guys are freaks.
Still think it's clear he has speed (which he needs to get to the rim and finish past help so much) and vertical.

Originally Posted by RFX45

I think Manu is mainly skills really. I wouldn't say he is below average because he isn't but he is more skillful than Wade. Watching the two play, Wade just seems forces his will to the basket while Manu weaves himself towards it. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but I think you're missing thinsg like Wade splitting the doubleteam so much and the fact that Ginobili has no mid-range game. When Wade goes to the basket, sure, he uses his strength/athleticism moreso than Manu. But Manu has no alternative.

Originally Posted by RFX45

As for number of dunks, it really isn't fair to say he dunks as much as Kobe since Kobe rarely dunks now, especially this season with all the injuries. His elevation has been hindered and you can tell even on a wide open fast break, he just isn't the slam dunk champ Kobe anymore. I haven't really seen Manu dunk that much this season, maybe once or twice. I've seen Wade dunk a lot of times, most of them over someone. You can't really say Manu dunks more than Pierce, Pierce was never a dunker, just doesn't seem like a compliment. It's like saying Manu can sprint faster than Camby.
It's not like saying Manu can sprint faster than Camby because there's really not that many wings that dunk. Therefore, I'm comparing him to notable wings who you don't consider unathletic. Who as a SG is obviously more athletic than Manu, for example? Wade. Vince Carter. I can't think of too many more players on this list. My whole point is that just because Manu is definitely less athletic than Wade doesn't mean he has NO athleticism compared to other players. So, he doesn't have to have immeasurable amounts of skill to overcome his ground-plodding slow-leaping body.

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Wade's game isn't that refined still. His variety on offense is far less than his contemporaries in dirk, kobe, durant.
Really, Wade's less refined than the most refined player in the league who has 3.5 years and 7 NBA seasons on him.

And Dirk, who is probably the 2nd-most versatile player on offense and whose height/skill combo has never been matched before in history. And who is a power forward.

Durant is surely debatable. Durant's offense comes heavily off of screens and he doesn't handle the ball as much. Surely that's a skill.

I just don't get you guys saying things like "Wade's game is just not that skilled; here, compare him to the best 2 player in the league."

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Wade is a monster on defense? Are you saying this because of steals and blocks? Because those don't measure defense really just playing the passing lanes. Remember when larry hughes led the NBA in steals or was like top 2-3 in steals for 2seasons in a row? Hughes is far from a great defender he just gambles. Gilbert is an awful defender but when healthy always is in the top 5 in steals.
No, I'm not marsupialed and automatically equate steals+blocks as great defense. I'm the one who said that Chris Paul's defense has been stated as overrated despite his crazy amount of steals. I said that Camby's defense is overrated despite his blocks because he plays the pick and roll poorly. Are you trying to say that Wade's defense is poor, or are you just trying to argue?

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Wade is good but hardly a very refined player. He is a bigger, stronger, better allen iverson in a way. Which is saying a lot actually. Wade is a monster in terms of athleticism and the strength he has at his size is almost unparalleled. Not many other 6'3-6'4 guys who are fast/quick enough to just speed by people and then take contact from a powerforward, maintain trajectory and midair balance and still finish with a controlled shot/layup
Hardly a very refined player! I never fully disagree with your sentiments, but you take these pronouncements too far.

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Dunking isn't the only measure of athleticism/strength as RFX said. Kobe is a good example and jordan didn't dunk a lot his last 2 seasons in chicago.
I KNOW dunking isn't the only measure. I never implied it wasn't. What is obvious is that it is ONE measure, and that Manu is clearly quick/fast enough to get to the rim an exorbitant amount of the time. That is athleticism.

last post on the subject.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Brothersport

Still think it's clear he has speed (which he needs to get to the rim and finish past help so much) and vertical.
I think that can be considered a skill, many people that are way faster can't do what he does. Changing direction in an instant like Wade isn't exactly speed, a quick first step isn't exactly speed, it is more of a skill that everyone can develop. Kind of like jab steps or quick jump stops, those can be developed and learned. Speed, strength and elevation can be improved but it is mostly something you have to have already or born with.

Originally Posted by Brothersport

It's not like saying Manu can sprint faster than Camby because there's really not that many wings that dunk. Therefore, I'm comparing him to notable wings who you don't consider unathletic. Who as a SG is obviously more athletic than Manu, for example? Wade. Vince Carter. I can't think of too many more players on this list. My whole point is that just because Manu is definitely less athletic than Wade doesn't mean he has NO athleticism compared to other players. So, he doesn't have to have immeasurable amounts of skill to overcome his ground-plodding slow-leaping body.

Oh man, from that list, there are so many more athletic players than Manu. Just from the top, Afflalo is very athletic, he just isn't a good scoring option. Ray Allen is very athletic, even at his age, he is still way more athletic than Manu. Brent Barry on his prime is pretty athletic, I know dunking isn't the only measure but he could dunk from the free throw line. I'd give the athleticism edge to him over Manu. Eric Gordon, Marcus Thornton, Ben Gordon, Anthony Parker, James Harden, Wesley Matthews, etc.. those are all more athletic than Manu.

I'll be honest, in the beginning of this discussion, I agreed that Manu was athletic but with further look and from what iirc in the games I've seen him play, he really is more skillful than athletic. That doesn't mean I would take Manu over Wade but skill-wise, Manu has the edge on Wade.

 

[HRoi]

Wade is a good defender. he's one of only four players I routinely see to straight up pick his man's pocket from a frontal position. CP3, Artest, and Rondo are the others. he's a disruptive team defender. he has otherworldly shotblocking skills for his size - look at how many times he stuffs opposing centers even though they see him coming

he takes plays off on defense so I'm not willing to annoint him all-nba first team yet, but he's definitely a very good defender

 

[whacked]

^ Wade's lateral quickness is very good too. His defensive game (and the effort put into it) far surpasses LeBron's and Anthony's.

 

[bigasahouse]

The worse Craig Sager outfits:

http://www.4thandforever.com/blog/20...0-worst-suits/

WTF is this:

Is it bad that I might like 1 or 2 of these though?

 

[fir3fox]

Originally Posted by bigasahouse

Is it bad that I might like 1 or 2 of these though?

One might, might be acceptably loud, the others are hideous.

Although, I think that's what he's aiming for.

 

[chronoaug]

Yea, manu probably is below average athleticism. So many random guys who aren't that good and are buried on benches who are really athletic. I mean, Gerald Green was one of the more athletic guys in the league (lacked strength though) but was a terrible player and only had 9 fingers. I still don't know how that wasn' the talk of the draft that year. He was lottery projected (at some point in the season mock drafts had him like 4 or 5) and i never heard much talk about the fact he had 9 fingers. Whether or not he was able to play well in high school that way, how is that not a gigantic issue or talking point? http://www.yaysports.com/nba/images/greenfingers.jpg sorry an old frustration bubbled up. also, did we really need like 5 days between games? so awful. way to kill all nba basketball fan momentum

 

[thekunk07]

lol

Originally Posted by Brothersport

The first part is just really not true when he's healthy, and the second part just compared Manu to the most athletic 3 high-usage guys in the league.

Manu still has plenty of athleticism, but it just isn't shown vertically as much as those other guys. He has a lot of horizontal quicks, body control (is that athleticism or a skill?), and a great first step, even though everyone knows he's going left. He blows by a lot of defenders and always ends up with an easy lay-up or dunk. He dunks more than Paul Pierce, for example, and probably at a similar per-minute rate as Kobe. He's athletically deceptive, like how Rudy Fernandez isn't known as a great leaper by any means, yet still manages plenty of alleyoop dunks. Manu just converts his hops into ground jets to blow by help defenders off of pick and rolls.

I know it's a huge difference. But I think it makes a much bigger difference when drawing up offensive strategy than it does in some abstract quantification of "skill."

Points in response to yours:

• Ginobili is a 3-pointer-or-lay-up player. Little in-between. 77.6% of his shots this year were from basket area or beyond the arc. Check hot spots. D-Wade, by comparison, had 58% of his shots from there. JR smith had 70%
  
• Ginobili (30.9%) shot worse on long 2s than Wade (35%), and took far far fewer of them. That's a skill thing. Durant shot 38.2%.
  
• I don't know what "pullup Js are all mimics" is really supposed to mean, but Ginobili obviously doesn't really own a pullup J.
  
• I'm not sure how you can say that Ginobili's defensive rotations are definitively superior, given that Wade is a monster on defense and the majority of that which he plays is help defense
  
• Ginobili's footwork being definitively superior is debatable; he can't pullup and Wade is the best in the league at splitting screens
  
• Wade of course is a better athlete, but I'm sick of hearing that Ginobili is anything below an above-average NBA SG athlete

Also, Wade doesn't have SO MUCH POWER. He's far from indestructible. He's one of the most similar players in the league to Manu in that his penchant for driving has led to a pounding and numerous injuries. He's not like LeBron. People have been wondering for years how long Wade's career is gonna last.

I'm really not arguing just to argue. I'm not arguing that Wade is more "skilled" than Ginobili. I just think it's not that far apart. Wade's game is more refined than someone like James or Dwight. He doesn't belong in the same category.

 

[Brothersport]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

lol
*shrug* When he's near 100%, he can be amazing, and everything I said applies. Take it with a grain of salt, but he's healthy the majority of the time. It's not like we're talking about present-day Yao, or Marcus Camby, or some ish.

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Yea, manu probably is below average athleticism. So many random guys who aren't that good and are buried on benches who are really athletic. I mean, Gerald Green was one of the more athletic guys in the league (lacked strength though) but was a terrible player and only had 9 fingers. I still don't know how that wasn' the talk of the draft that year. He was lottery projected (at some point in the season mock drafts had him like 4 or 5) and i never heard much talk about the fact he had 9 fingers. Whether or not he was able to play well in high school that way, how is that not a gigantic issue or talking point?
http://www.yaysports.com/nba/images/greenfingers.jpg


sorry an old frustration bubbled up.
Loll I didn't know he only had 9 fingers. That's not why he failed, though. If he gave effort and had a decent bball IQ he'd be at least a steady rotation player.

 

[chronoaug]

I'm starting to wonder about you by assuming that marcus camby isn't athletic? Maybe the past 2 seasons as he's old as **** now but even as little as 3-4 years ago camby was spry and in his prime camby was very quick, good lateral movement, not the highest vertical but was a quick double jumper, and good body control. Dude is skinny but wirey and can hold his own against most everyone but shaq during his career. Ginobli is amazing but being an elite athlete doesn't mean you're good. Josh Smith was arguably the most athletic guy in the NBA his first 2seasons but was awful. Finally got the hang of it. If you look at the nba draft combine stuff, usually the best 2-3 athletes aren't the best players. Joey Graham is more athletic than 90% of the nba but an awful ball player. Anthnoy Randolph is skinny but an athletic freak and was supposed to break out this season but didn't. Greg Oden was actually much more athletic than Kevin Durant (ran better lateral speed drills and other quickness/speed drills at the combine) but injuries have fucked him royally. But yea, obviously if you're a good nba player you're a very good athlete and most all good players are at least above average athletes. The adam morrisons and jj redicks of the world often fail despite having a solid skill set and versatility. Which is why most still hold out hopes with the Gerald Greens of the world hoping something mentally will click and they'll "get it" and you'll have a star on your hand. Ginobli is definitely athletic when healthy, like i told you, he's no brian cardinal or something. I'm aware the 9fingers isn't the only reason he failed but i used to play with a guy with almos the exact same thing (think the same finger) and while he could still play fine, he did say it did effect him slightly. At a level as high as the nba where miniscule things can mean the difference, it couldn't have helped him. Oh yea, he's a moron. I remember seeing an interview with him and it was depressing. He actually had a good half a season with the Mavs 2 years ago or so where it seemed he was turning it around as a 12minute a game spark thing but i don't know what happened. Too bad. No doubt the guy is borderline mentally challenged though Poor Guy http://lokobasket.com/club/team/78/

 

[Brothersport]

^ If you read it again, I was talking about Yao and Camby being injured all the time, not unathletic.

The athlete thing is a sidetrack. I know it doesn't = performance. I know Durant tested out as the worst athlete of his draft (but that has been overcome by his absurd length and his ridiculous handle). I know that Anthony Randolph has been mostly fucked by Don Nelson, but will probably never reach his vast potential. The finger thing is funny. When I went to Duke, I was there the same time as this bottom of the rotation guy named Marty Pocius. He was a pretty athletic guy (at Duke, really?) from Lithuania (that's more like it) who was missing most of his middle finger. Just really odd to look at. F Gerald Green, what happened to JAMES WHITE????? James White is the best basketbal videogame player I've ever had the fortune of playing as. He is amazingly fast and can jump out of the gym. He would instantly win any dunk contest. He seems like a good guy. Why isn't he in the league?? Travesty! I hold out so much hope for him putting it together...

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Brothersport

F Gerald Green, what happened to JAMES WHITE????? James White is the best basketbal videogame player I've ever had the fortune of playing as. He is amazingly fast and can jump out of the gym. He would instantly win any dunk contest. He seems like a good guy. Why isn't he in the league?? Travesty! I hold out so much hope for him putting it together...

Plain and simple, he sucked. He was with the Spurs for a season and then left to play overseas and I don't think he is even getting burn over there. He is a highlight reel and I wanted him to get some pt so he could participate in the slam dunk competition but that is all he is, nothing but hops. Sad but he is a one trick pony. He fits better in the And1 tour bus than the NBA, I don't even think he is D-League material.

 

[HRoi]

haha, Gerald green and James white...I remember in NBA 2K they had 99 dunk ratings but their overall rating was in the 50's

 

[Hombre Secreto]

Some idiot here in LA named Dave Smith (Sports DJ) used to blast the Lakers for drafting Bynum instead of Gerald Green.