Mod to Suedehead

[browniecj]

One of my favourite Dj(who includes "Revival" in his Set,is Gladdy Wax(someone I saw at Margate( last year).

 

[Oneflewover]

Pretty sure this has been on here before. Another Daily Express photo, this time dated (April 1971) and caption:

'Lindsay Newton, 14, from North Salford Girls’ secondary school was one of several pupils who upset their parents and head teacher when they got ‘skin-bird’ haircuts.'

Called the "shaggy dog" in Hull

 

[Studio1st]

Botolph,

It's tricky defining 'revival' reggae exactly as it can mean all things to all people.

It's most commonly used to describe music from 1959/60 up to 79/80 just before the change to 'dancehall' rhythms. Within this timeframe you can find loads of sub-genres and individual small scenes with preferences for certain styles - at a guess what Browniecj might be particularly refering to is the non 'roots' Jamaican vocal tunes from the 71-75 period of which there are literally thousands.

Many are brilliant and appeal accross the board to roots fans, lovers fans and old timers alike, some are definitely on a more sugary, sentimental side beloved of older West Indians and often called 'big peoples music' (try Barry Biggs for instance). Jamaicans have always produced love songs and this continued beyond the 'skinhead' time frame and pre-date what is strictly termed 'lovers' (i.e uk produced lovers vocals from the second half of the seventies).

The reggae scene in England in the early 70s began to fracture a bit, younger kids wanted the emeging new harder, experimental sounds of roots, dub and deejays on the one hand, a more mature crowd often wanted more of the vocals and what would later be termed 'lovers' sounds - and Trojan continually attempted to achieve chart success with endless 'pop reggae' (most of which are abysmal and helped bankrupt the company). Few artists actually confined themselves to one style and usually recorded all kinds of music and many sounds would play accross the range of styles (In fact many sounds would also run some soul/funk tunes in a dance). Its really mid/later 70s onwards that specifically 'roots' sounds started to really make a seperate scene based around 'hard' sounds (with the specific lovers sounds starting but the majority still playing a bit of eveything).

Given the musical options available I get a bit irritated by the received skinhead wisdom that 'the music went **** after 70/71/72' or 'became all about rasta' - I'm more than happy to hear that an individual didnt like it as much after that point but it most certainly didnt 'turn ****' (thats not aimed at anyone here just is something i used to hear said a lot). Anyone that wilfully ignores any music after a given date because the clothes they like were no longer worn is a complete knob in my very humble! (again not directed at anyone here and i cant find the smileys right now).

It's always a matter of dispute how much skins were into reggae (and of course where you were). I wasnt born then so cant give a personal view but it seems safe to say (trying to make this post of some general relevance to the main topic) it was anything from a range of: didnt listen to it/was just the big hits/was the main soundtrack/was a complete obsession that outlasted the fashion.

Anyway here's some early seventies classic 'revival' vocals try these (very definitely NOT a top 5 btw, just a couple as they occur to me over a lunch hour):

4 Jamaican:
Tennors 'Weather Report' (Tennors lead by the fabulous Ronnie Davis)

Ronnie Davis 'Lady Love'

Freddy McKay 'Our Rendezvous'

Dennis Brown 'Baby dont do it'

1 English:
Jackie Edwards 'I do Love You' (and also try the flip 'Who told you so')

p.s Gladdy Wax is great and can be seen and heard on his sound for free at Notting Hill each year on the corner of Portobello Rd and Golbourne Road

 

[Botolph]

Botolph,

It's tricky defining 'revival' reggae exactly as it can mean all things to all people.

It's most commonly used to describe music from 1959/60 up to 79/80 just before the change to 'dancehall' rhythms. Within this timeframe you can find loads of sub-genres and individual small scenes with preferences for certain styles - at a guess what Browniecj might be particularly refering to is the non 'roots' Jamaican vocal tunes from the 71-75 period of which there are literally thousands.

Many are brilliant and appeal accross the board to roots fans, lovers fans and old timers alike, some are definitely on a more sugary, sentimental side beloved of older West Indians and often called 'big peoples music' (try Barry Biggs for instance). Jamaicans have always produced love songs and this continued beyond the 'skinhead' time frame and pre-date what is strictly termed 'lovers' (i.e uk produced lovers vocals from the second half of the seventies).

The reggae scene in England in the early 70s began to fracture a bit, younger kids wanted the emeging new harder, experimental sounds of roots, dub and deejays on the one hand, a more mature crowd often wanted more of the vocals and what would later be termed 'lovers' sounds - and Trojan continually attempted to achieve chart success with endless 'pop reggae' (most of which are abysmal and helped bankrupt the company). Few artists actually confined themselves to one style and usually recorded all kinds of music and many sounds would play accross the range of styles (In fact many sounds would also run some soul/funk tunes in a dance). Its really mid/later 70s onwards that specifically 'roots' sounds started to really make a seperate scene based around 'hard' sounds (with the specific lovers sounds starting but the majority still playing a bit of eveything).

Given the musical options available I get a bit irritated by the received skinhead wisdom that 'the music went **** after 70/71/72' or 'became all about rasta' - I'm more than happy to hear that an individual didnt like it as much after that point but it most certainly didnt 'turn ****' (thats not aimed at anyone here just is something i used to hear said a lot). Anyone that wilfully ignores any music after a given date because the clothes they like were no longer worn is a complete knob in my very humble! (again not directed at anyone here and i cant find the smileys right now).

It's always a matter of dispute how much skins were into reggae (and of course where you were). I wasnt born then so cant give a personal view but it seems safe to say (trying to make this post of some general relevance to the main topic) it was anything from a range of: didnt listen to it/was just the big hits/was the main soundtrack/was a complete obsession that outlasted the fashion.

Anyway here's some early seventies classic 'revival' vocals try these (very definitely NOT a top 5 btw, just a couple as they occur to me over a lunch hour):

4 Jamaican:
Tennors 'Weather Report' (Tennors lead by the fabulous Ronnie Davis)

Ronnie Davis 'Lady Love'

Freddy McKay 'Our Rendezvous'

Dennis Brown 'Baby dont do it'

1 English:
Jackie Edwards 'I do Love You' (and also try the flip 'Who told you so')

p.s Gladdy Wax is great and can be seen and heard on his sound for free at Notting Hill each year on the corner of Portobello Rd and Golbourne Road

Studio1st, thanks for that post! Well-written, and informative.

 

[browniecj]



Botolph,

It's tricky defining 'revival' reggae exactly as it can mean all things to all people.

It's most commonly used to describe music from 1959/60 up to 79/80 just before the change to 'dancehall' rhythms. Within this timeframe you can find loads of sub-genres and individual small scenes with preferences for certain styles - at a guess what Browniecj might be particularly refering to is the non 'roots' Jamaican vocal tunes from the 71-75 period of which there are literally thousands.

Many are brilliant and appeal accross the board to roots fans, lovers fans and old timers alike, some are definitely on a more sugary, sentimental side beloved of older West Indians and often called 'big peoples music' (try Barry Biggs for instance). Jamaicans have always produced love songs and this continued beyond the 'skinhead' time frame and pre-date what is strictly termed 'lovers' (i.e uk produced lovers vocals from the second half of the seventies).

The reggae scene in England in the early 70s began to fracture a bit, younger kids wanted the emeging new harder, experimental sounds of roots, dub and deejays on the one hand, a more mature crowd often wanted more of the vocals and what would later be termed 'lovers' sounds - and Trojan continually attempted to achieve chart success with endless 'pop reggae' (most of which are abysmal and helped bankrupt the company). Few artists actually confined themselves to one style and usually recorded all kinds of music and many sounds would play accross the range of styles (In fact many sounds would also run some soul/funk tunes in a dance). Its really mid/later 70s onwards that specifically 'roots' sounds started to really make a seperate scene based around 'hard' sounds (with the specific lovers sounds starting but the majority still playing a bit of eveything).

Given the musical options available I get a bit irritated by the received skinhead wisdom that 'the music went **** after 70/71/72' or 'became all about rasta' - I'm more than happy to hear that an individual didnt like it as much after that point but it most certainly didnt 'turn ****' (thats not aimed at anyone here just is something i used to hear said a lot). Anyone that wilfully ignores any music after a given date because the clothes they like were no longer worn is a complete knob in my very humble! (again not directed at anyone here and i cant find the smileys right now).

It's always a matter of dispute how much skins were into reggae (and of course where you were). I wasnt born then so cant give a personal view but it seems safe to say (trying to make this post of some general relevance to the main topic) it was anything from a range of: didnt listen to it/was just the big hits/was the main soundtrack/was a complete obsession that outlasted the fashion.

Anyway here's some early seventies classic 'revival' vocals try these (very definitely NOT a top 5 btw, just a couple as they occur to me over a lunch hour):

4 Jamaican:
Tennors 'Weather Report' (Tennors lead by the fabulous Ronnie Davis)

Ronnie Davis 'Lady Love'

Freddy McKay 'Our Rendezvous'

Dennis Brown 'Baby dont do it'

1 English:
Jackie Edwards 'I do Love You' (and also try the flip 'Who told you so')

p.s Gladdy Wax is great and can be seen and heard on his sound for free at Notting Hill each year on the corner of Portobello Rd and Golbourne Road

Thank you Studio1st.You have put it very well(I lack IT Skills to back up what I say,with references).I was referring to the non "Roots"Tunes from `71/`75.There are thousands out there,that need to be heard again.Your Choices are spot-on.

 

[Sirryacus]

So you are telling me you don't like this great 1977 release by the Heptones called Party Time?

 

[browniecj]



So you are telling me you don't like this great 1977 release by the Heptones called Party Time?

A great Tune and there were many,many others.As I stated`71/`75 is my preferred period(it does not mean,if I hear a Tune from later-- I will dismiss it)Honey Boy made a great version of "Dark End Of The Street" from 1977.I have got it as well as others-even from today.

 

[roytonboy]

Botolph,

It's tricky defining 'revival' reggae exactly as it can mean all things to all people.

It's most commonly used to describe music from 1959/60 up to 79/80 just before the change to 'dancehall' rhythms. Within this timeframe you can find loads of sub-genres and individual small scenes with preferences for certain styles - at a guess what Browniecj might be particularly refering to is the non 'roots' Jamaican vocal tunes from the 71-75 period of which there are literally thousands.

Many are brilliant and appeal accross the board to roots fans, lovers fans and old timers alike, some are definitely on a more sugary, sentimental side beloved of older West Indians and often called 'big peoples music' (try Barry Biggs for instance). Jamaicans have always produced love songs and this continued beyond the 'skinhead' time frame and pre-date what is strictly termed 'lovers' (i.e uk produced lovers vocals from the second half of the seventies).

The reggae scene in England in the early 70s began to fracture a bit, younger kids wanted the emeging new harder, experimental sounds of roots, dub and deejays on the one hand, a more mature crowd often wanted more of the vocals and what would later be termed 'lovers' sounds - and Trojan continually attempted to achieve chart success with endless 'pop reggae' (most of which are abysmal and helped bankrupt the company). Few artists actually confined themselves to one style and usually recorded all kinds of music and many sounds would play accross the range of styles (In fact many sounds would also run some soul/funk tunes in a dance). Its really mid/later 70s onwards that specifically 'roots' sounds started to really make a seperate scene based around 'hard' sounds (with the specific lovers sounds starting but the majority still playing a bit of eveything).

Given the musical options available I get a bit irritated by the received skinhead wisdom that 'the music went **** after 70/71/72' or 'became all about rasta' - I'm more than happy to hear that an individual didnt like it as much after that point but it most certainly didnt 'turn ****' (thats not aimed at anyone here just is something i used to hear said a lot). Anyone that wilfully ignores any music after a given date because the clothes they like were no longer worn is a complete knob in my very humble! (again not directed at anyone here and i cant find the smileys right now).

It's always a matter of dispute how much skins were into reggae (and of course where you were). I wasnt born then so cant give a personal view but it seems safe to say (trying to make this post of some general relevance to the main topic) it was anything from a range of: didnt listen to it/was just the big hits/was the main soundtrack/was a complete obsession that outlasted the fashion.

Anyway here's some early seventies classic 'revival' vocals try these (very definitely NOT a top 5 btw, just a couple as they occur to me over a lunch hour):

4 Jamaican:
Tennors 'Weather Report' (Tennors lead by the fabulous Ronnie Davis)

Ronnie Davis 'Lady Love'

Freddy McKay 'Our Rendezvous'

Dennis Brown 'Baby dont do it'

1 English:
Jackie Edwards 'I do Love You' (and also try the flip 'Who told you so')

p.s Gladdy Wax is great and can be seen and heard on his sound for free at Notting Hill each year on the corner of Portobello Rd and Golbourne Road

Great post, Studio 1st. I'm certainly no great authority on Reggae but your love and knowledge of the music comes through loud and clear.

I suppose what browniecj and I were alluding to was the 'anglicising' of reggae from about 1971 onwards, when some of it was being produced principally for white kids to capitalise on the popularity it enjoyed during the 'skinhead' period. In truth when some of these records were being knocked out there was probably only one Jamaican (the lead vocalist) in the building. It was a million miles away from the raw sound that made it so attractive in the first place and I can't imagine that they had much appeal to the West Indian community in Britain. No doubt great music was still being produced in Jamaica at this time, just that most of us never got to hear it. This comment applies equally to 'Northern Soul' when the music industry jumped on the bandwaggon and started producing tailor made 'Northern Soul' for the mass market. Most of it wouldn't get the time of day now, yet to lots of people, these records are what Northern Soul is simply because that is what they heard on the radio at the time.

 

[roytonboy]

Little Queenie, I found this a really surprising fact. On what basis were they lampooned? When first buying that book many, many years ago I thought that the drawings were very good (probably the best thing in it, actually). Whilst they didn't fit exactly into the time-scale I would have given and some of the clothes not so widely worn in our area, I just put this down to the old 'time/space continuum' whereby styles changed slightly from region to region and over different periods. The only slight criticism I would have is that the jeans depicted were shorter than I saw worn at the time, generally speaking. (again, could be regional differences?)

The reason I posed this question was that I recall the (fairly) recent discussion on illustrations for the book. I'm not quite sure of all of the stated objectives of the book, but I'm pretty sure one of them was to record or make people aware of the original skinhead styles. I suspect good quality photos showing the range of styles in different areas through the 'original' period will be difficult to obtain and illustrations may well be the answer. If that is the case then the quality of these drawings will be what define the book - they are the makings of the Nick Knight book, for example. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the 'Osprey' military history publications.I have bought some prior to trips to Arnhem, The Somme and Normandy for a bit of background reading. The illustrations really are first class and I suspect are the main reason why military history buffs and ... dare I say it..... re-enactors buy them. Once we are talking about the use of a professional illustrator, then costs will naturally rise but there could be a useful spin - off in that some of the prints could be sold - I would imagine there would be a minority market for something that is well done. Let's face it, if some of our number find themselves on the cover of a Japanese CD, then there is a demand for pictures of the style somewhere!

Naturally any illustrator is going to need considerable guidance to 'get it right' but this is probably the only opportunity there will be to do this.

 

[Ed Vaughan]

While I know this will identify me as probably/possibly the saddest poster on the forum, I'll admit to this, anyway:

"Virtually every day I hit the keyboard, I play this song... at least once.



"It evokes happy memories - and a few not so... but it takes me back to a time where 'fun rules OK!' and life was good.

'The actual performance is amateurish, to say the least; and it gets repetitive - the Beatles version was never like this - but it has it all, for me.

"So there - outed!"

 

[browniecj]



Great post, Studio 1st. I'm certainly no great authority on Reggae but your love and knowledge of the music comes through loud and clear.

I suppose what browniecj and I were alluding to was the 'anglicising' of reggae from about 1971 onwards, when some of it was being produced principally for white kids to capitalise on the popularity it enjoyed during the 'skinhead' period. In truth when some of these records were being knocked out there was probably only one Jamaican (the lead vocalist) in the building. It was a million miles away from the raw sound that made it so attractive in the first place and I can't imagine that they had much appeal to the West Indian community in Britain. No doubt great music was still being produced in Jamaica at this time, just that most of us never got to hear it.  This comment applies equally to 'Northern Soul' when the music industry jumped on the bandwaggon and started producing tailor made 'Northern Soul' for the mass market. Most of it wouldn't get the time of day now, yet to lots of people,  these records are what Northern Soul is simply because that is what they heard on the radio at the time.

Good one roytonboy

The reason I posed this question was that I recall the (fairly) recent discussion on illustrations for the book. I'm not quite sure of all of the stated objectives of the book, but I'm pretty sure one of them was to record or make people aware of the original skinhead styles. I suspect good quality photos showing the range of styles in different areas through the 'original' period will be difficult to obtain and illustrations may well be the answer. If that is the case then the quality of these drawings will be what define the book - they are the makings of the Nick Knight book, for example. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the 'Osprey' military history publications.I have bought some prior to trips to Arnhem, The Somme and Normandy for a bit of background reading. The illustrations really are first class and I suspect are the main reason why military history buffs and ... dare I say it..... re-enactors buy them.  Once we are talking about the use of a  professional illustrator, then costs will naturally rise but there could be a useful spin - off in that some of the prints could be sold - I would imagine there would be a minority market for something that is well done. Let's face it, if some of our number find themselves on the cover of a Japanese CD, then there is a demand for pictures of the style somewhere! 

Naturally any illustrator is going to need considerable guidance to 'get it right' but this is probably the only opportunity there will be to do this.

I have a few Osprey Books(I love Military History),the illustrations are top notch.A DVD Cover made us smile once.We had gone to Loughborough to the Reggae Room(this was the first one I had gone to,for 40 years+)Some Photos were taken and lo and behold one appeared on a DVD Cover-"The History O Ska".My Missus is sitting there in all her glory,me I had my right Leg showing !!!

 

[Clouseau]

I've already expressed my opinion a few hundred pages ago about these drawings, that MoM want to use for the book. What i don't really appreciate, and this is not to offense the artist, is that they seem to be realized on computer, that they are a bit clumsy, and that imho nothing compares to a "real" sketch.
I think that in the case of a book, the drawings are really important. Look at the Nick Knight's book. What people retained of the book is the "Jim Ferguson fashion notebook". It's been discussed before and i'm not speaking of the historical accuracy of the drawings but of their artistic qualities. What i like about them is the precision of the line. They remind me a little of Ron Volstad's illustrations, who specializes in WW2 drawings. There is a feeling of authenticity in them (even if once again there is a debate about Ferguson's drawings), and they are stylish. I'm not saying that the style should be copied for the book, but that the future drawings should be on the artistical side at least as good, and even better IMO.

Ron Volstad is Osprey's top illustrator.

 

[Aces and Eights]

While I know this will identify me as probably/possibly the saddest poster on the forum, I'll admit to this, anyway:

"Virtually every day I hit the keyboard, I play this song... at least once.



"It evokes happy memories - and a few not so... but it takes me back to a time where 'fun rules OK!' and life was good.

'The actual performance is amateurish, to say the least; and it gets repetitive - the Beatles version was never like this - but it has it all, for me.

"So there - outed!"

Ed

just looked through your playlist - there is a lot of good stuff there especially late 60s - music that was not skinhead but was in the charts at our time and was popular with us. Although some were cringe worthy at the time ie Yellow River even that one has fond memories of good times but we would never had admitted it back then

We don't pick the sounds that trigger our memories they are just there in the background somewere

I would have a very similar list of non skinhead songs of our day.

I don't recall the Harry J one .......just when you think you knew 'em all - another one pops up

Thanks for the post

 

[Ed Vaughan]



Ed

just looked through your playlist - there is a lot of good stuff there especially late 60s - music that was not skinhead but was in the charts at our time and was popular with us.  Although some were cringe worthy at the time ie Yellow River even that one has fond memories of good times but we would never had admitted it back then

We don't pick the sounds that trigger our memories they are just there in the background somewere

I would have a very similar list of non skinhead songs of our day.

I don't recall the Harry J one .......just when you think you knew 'em all - another one pops up

Thanks for the post

Thanks for your understanding, I always try to unburden myself at this time of year - to make room for making an erse of myself the following one.

Now if I were a Catholic... I could do it in one go.

All the very best to you all, folks.

 

[Sirryacus]

I've heard most of them plenty of radio hits as many have said but still great stuff Ed, alright all off to a night of shows.