Mod to Suedehead

[Man-of-Mystery]



The reason I posed this question was that I recall the (fairly) recent discussion on illustrations for the book. I'm not quite sure of all of the stated objectives of the book, but I'm pretty sure one of them was to record or make people aware of the original skinhead styles. I suspect good quality photos showing the range of styles in different areas through the 'original' period will be difficult to obtain and illustrations may well be the answer. If that is the case then the quality of these drawings will be what define the book - they are the makings of the Nick Knight book, for example. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the 'Osprey' military history publications.I have bought some prior to trips to Arnhem, The Somme and Normandy for a bit of background reading. The illustrations really are first class and I suspect are the main reason why military history buffs and ... dare I say it..... re-enactors buy them.  Once we are talking about the use of a  professional illustrator, then costs will naturally rise but there could be a useful spin - off in that some of the prints could be sold - I would imagine there would be a minority market for something that is well done. Let's face it, if some of our number find themselves on the cover of a Japanese CD, then there is a demand for pictures of the style somewhere! 

Naturally any illustrator is going to need considerable guidance to 'get it right' but this is probably the only opportunity there will be to do this.

You're entirely right about one of the aims of the book being to describe in detail (if not illustrate) the original style, and thereby alter the public perception that skinhead was all about boots and braces. You're also right about the scarcity of photos from the era - true we have uncovered some that show something other than boots and braces, but not an overwhelming amount. Maybe we have enough, though.

I know the Osprey books too. I have a lot of earlier ones focussing on the Roman era, many illustrated by the late Ron Embleton. But what we have is a lot of verbal/textual material, and that is primarily what the book is drawing on. It's not an attempt to make a skinhead Osprey, nor to reproduce the Nick Knight book, and it shouldn't be either of those IMHO.

There are two or three people who are either on this thread or aware of the project who have artistic talent. Providing illustrations for the book wouldn't be totally out of the reach of this talent, but it would be impossible in practical terms, I would say, for any of them to devote the time and effort needed. We all have other lives to lead - I know first hand how difficult it is to find time here and there to devote to the simple task of transcribing text from this thread and then organising it into potential chapters. Also, I don't think illustrations would ever totally satisfy everyone. I'm already resigned to the fact that the fiercest critics of whatever emerges as the final book will probably come from our own ranks, and that's probably as it should be.

Hiring an illustrator would be prohibitively expensive. I recently engaged a semi-professional illustrator to make a simple design for a book cover. She charged me the equivalent of £50. That was cheap. Inflate that to professional rates, and then multiply that by the number of illustrations we would need for anything like the Nick Knight book or an Osprey edition, and we are talking about a considerable outlay, and one we will not get back, even if we try to flog off pints..

As long as this is something being run from the ground upwards, I'm afraid we have to forget a product with that level of illustration.

....

BUT - this is a long shot - how would you like me to turn this argument totally on its head, write to Osprey on my agency-headed paper and ask them if they would like to take over the whole project and produce a skinhead book based on our words and descriptions? It's a thought. They're likely to tell me to bugger off, but.. what do you think?

 

[Clouseau]

... BUT - this is a long shot - how would you like me to turn this argument totally on its head, write to Osprey on my agency-headed paper and ask them if they would like to take over the whole project and produce a skinhead book based on our words and descriptions? It's a thought. They're likely to tell me to bugger off, but.. what do you think?

Well, you could give it a try. Of course, it's not sure a "skinhead" book would fit in their editorial line, but who knows? After all Osprey is an English book publisher, founded in... 1969 !
If by chance they'd say YES, another danger is that you couldn't keep total control over the book content.
Speaking of illustrators, it will be difficult to find somebody of the class of Ron Embleton or Ron Volstad, not even speaking of the actual cost of book illustrators! But maybe someone unexpected will pop up at one point.

 

[roytonboy]

You're entirely right about one of the aims of the book being to describe in detail (if not illustrate) the original style, and thereby alter the public perception that skinhead was all about boots and braces. You're also right about the scarcity of photos from the era - true we have uncovered some that show something other than boots and braces, but not an overwhelming amount. Maybe we have enough, though.

I know the Osprey books too. I have a lot of earlier ones focussing on the Roman era, many illustrated by the late Ron Embleton. But what we have is a lot of verbal/textual material, and that is primarily what the book is drawing on. It's not an attempt to make a skinhead Osprey, nor to reproduce the Nick Knight book, and it shouldn't be either of those IMHO.

There are two or three people who are either on this thread or aware of the project who have artistic talent. Providing illustrations for the book wouldn't be totally out of the reach of this talent, but it would be impossible in practical terms, I would say, for any of them to devote the time and effort needed. We all have other lives to lead - I know first hand how difficult it is to find time here and there to devote to the simple task of transcribing text from this thread and then organising it into potential chapters. Also, I don't think illustrations would ever totally satisfy everyone. I'm already resigned to the fact that the fiercest critics of whatever emerges as the final book will probably come from our own ranks, and that's probably as it should be.

Hiring an illustrator would be prohibitively expensive. I recently engaged a semi-professional illustrator to make a simple design for a book cover. She charged me the equivalent of £50. That was cheap. Inflate that to professional rates, and then multiply that by the number of illustrations we would need for anything like the Nick Knight book or an Osprey edition, and we are talking about a considerable outlay, and one we will not get back, even if we try to flog off pints..

As long as this is something being run from the ground upwards, I'm afraid we have to forget a product with that level of illustration.

....

BUT - this is a long shot - how would you like me to turn this argument totally on its head, write to Osprey on my agency-headed paper and ask them if they would like to take over the whole project and produce a skinhead book based on our words and descriptions? It's a thought. They're likely to tell me to bugger off, but.. what do you think?

Could be worth the cost of a stamp, an envelope and a piece of paper.They may reject it out of hand, they may be interested, they may make some suggestions that we've not yet considered - who knows?

 

[roytonboy]

I have just had a look on the internet - Nick Knights book and the Osprey Men At Arms Series retail at about the same price, Surely there would be more demand for a book about our style than on on The Scythians 700-300BC?

 

[loempiavreter]

Looks about summer (shirts untucked) 1970, suprised by that blue jacket... really nice color.

Willesden - Some white adidas sambas in there as well...

These lads from Manchester where your age Browniecj (you asked about this), they would most definately call themselves mods even though their wardrobe has all the signs of being up with the latest "fashion" (trucker jackets in denim, leather, suede, driving gloves, parting in crop).

Southeast London 1968

 

[browniecj]



Looks about summer (shirts untucked) 1970, suprised by that blue jacket... really nice color.

Willesden - Some white adidas sambas in there as well...

These lads from Manchester where your age Browniecj (you asked about this), they would most definately call themselves mods even though their wardrobe has all the signs of being up with the latest "fashion" (trucker jackets in denim, leather, suede, driving gloves, parting in crop).

It is a shame they do not come on here though.

Southeast London 1968

Good Photo

While I know this will identify me as probably/possibly the saddest poster on the forum, I'll admit to this, anyway:

"Virtually every day I hit the keyboard, I play this song... at least once.



"It evokes happy memories - and a few not so... but it takes me back to a time where 'fun rules OK!' and life was good.

'The actual performance is amateurish, to say the least; and it gets repetitive - the Beatles version was never like this - but it has it all, for me.

"So there - outed!"

Was the Harry J one off the Album?If so I think I remember it-just by playing through the tracks.

 

[Man-of-Mystery]



I have just had a look on the internet - Nick Knights book and the Osprey Men At Arms Series retail at about the same price, Surely there would be more demand for a book about our style than on on The Scythians 700-300BC?

You'd think so.

 

[roytonboy]

The folks here in my little neck of N.London took speed right through the 60's, but not to 'get wasted'. It was taken so they could stay up and dance all night...blah...blah...blah...a cliche, but all true!

The pills (Bennies) were for recreational use only, they were weekend users and didn't get involved in any dealing or any 'heavier' drugs.

The local drug use could be a leftover from them being older (ex) Mods, however I've heard it said that a lot of Skinheads were anti-drugs, that can't be true?

bunty, my apologies for not replying to this one sooner - it caught my eye but I must have been in the throes of something else at the time.

I think your statement has some truth in it and I would have said that amongst my skinhead friends this would have been accurate. I suspect that to a degree it depends from which direction you arrived at 'skinhead'. Some of our number (I'm thinking of browniecj in particular and probably Mr, Knightly among others - please correct me if I've got this wrong) were mods who suddenly found themselves described as 'skinheads' - it was just the latest label and didn't affect their dress sense, attitudes or social life at all - these things had been established over a period of time, probably years. As we know, these lads continued to wear suits, go out on the town and enjoy their music. As we also know, some mods took speed and other drugs, notably in pill form. (I'm speaking in general terms here, not about individuals on this forum)). I would imagine that people who evolved into skinheads in this way who had previously taken drugs didn't suddenly stop "because we're skinheads now".

On the other hand, you had people like me. My path to skinhead was quite different, but was a journey shared by most people I knew who were skinheads back then. From the age of 11 or 12 I was regularly attending football matches with my mates. Looking back, it seems quite strange that we were allowed to go off on our own at that age but that was how it was in the mid-late 60's, as kids we did kids things - climbing trees and making rope swings, fishing, playing and watching football and it was all considered quite safe. It was quite natural for us then to see, become interested in, then wish to be a part of, football terrace culture and fashion. Oh, how I wanted that surfer jacket I'd seen the 'big lads' wear on the Kippax when I was 12 or 13, how proud I was when I got one that Christmas. From there the other clothes followed, the Levi's, the brogues, even some heavy boots - all copied from what I'd seen on the terraces. (At that time youth fashion was still 'late mod' and worn by many types of youths, not just those who followed football). We saw these lads involved in trouble at matches and found it exciting. In early 1969 however, we started to see the newspaper reports of 'skinheads'. Who were these 'skinheads'? - fanatical football supporters, dressed in their Levi's and boots who would fight with rivals at football matches. Wait a minute .......

The lad next door but one (also a City fan) who went to a different school, dressed like me and now had his hair cut short and 3 of us in my class decided that we too would 'become skinheads'. (the first in our school!) What were our influences then? Firstly: the football terraces which through the 1969-1972 period were very influential for us. Secondly: some of the older lads who lived near us - they seemed to know what to wear, but initially we didn't get too close and thirdly: the newspapers. These were now full of stories about skinheads - how they were hostile to motorbike riding greasers and dirty, long haired, scruffy, drug taking hippies. In fact, some made out that the skinheads emerged as a direct rejection of the mod 'movement' turning into hippies, so everything that hippies stood for, skinheads were against and viola! there you have it, a new generation of young skinheads who were antl-drugs. I repeat, I was 14 years old, so were my closest skinhead mates - we read it in the papers, we believed it. Having said that, I will state categorically that from 1969-1972, later in which time I was going to Soul clubs and parties, I never saw or even heard of drugs being taken, it was just completely off the radar. Most of us didn't even smoke ('though, coincidentally, I did have some non-skinhead friends who did smoke) - maybe we were saving all our money for football and clothes. I am certain of this because about 3 years later, when I was a student I had to present a paper (It was nowhere near grand enough to be a thesis) for the 'Youth In Society' module where I looked at gang culture. As research I read a book about the Roundhouse gang from Liverpool in which they talked about experimenting with pills and I recall thinking, "what the f*ck's that all about?", so alien was it too me. Interestingly, they soon "gave it the elbow" as it "did their heads in", made them moody and caused them to fall out with each other.

On the subject of college life, during the mid 70s I spent 3 years away from home on campus (never really went back.....) and only came across drug use on one occasion. We were invited to a house party by a friend of a friend and when we got there they weren't really 'our sort' of people, being of the long haired, bearded/mustachiod, flared jeans, scruffy t-shirt types of students (so were the blokes!). They were just sat around smoking, drinking and listening to rock music. This was not our idea of a great night out and we couldn't help noticing a strange smell in the air. After a polite passage of time we 'made our excuses and left'. Not everybody fitted the long haired, dope smoking layabout student image - though clearly some did! The rest of us were getting our 'highs' in other ways.

 

[Ed Vaughan]

Some great, fresh(!) pics, fellas - thanks.

 

[Botolph]

bunty, my apologies for not replying to this one sooner - it caught my eye but I must have been in the throes of something else at the time.

I think your statement has some truth in it and I would have said that amongst my skinhead friends this would have been accurate. I suspect that to a degree it depends from which direction you arrived at 'skinhead'. Some of our number (I'm thinking of browniecj in particular and probably Mr, Knightly among others - please correct me if I've got this wrong) were mods who suddenly found themselves described as 'skinheads' - it was just the latest label and didn't affect their dress sense, attitudes or social life at all - these things had been established over a period of time, probably years. As we know, these lads continued to wear suits, go out on the town and enjoy their music. As we also know, some mods took speed and other drugs, notably in pill form. (I'm speaking in general terms here, not about individuals on this forum)). I would imagine that people who evolved into skinheads in this way who had previously taken drugs didn't suddenly stop "because we're skinheads now".

On the other hand, you had people like me. My journey to skinhead was quite different, but was a journey shared by most people I knew who were skinheads back then. From the age of 11 or 12 I was regularly attending football matches with my mates. Looking back, it seems quite strange that we were allowed to go off on our own at that age but that was how it was in the mid-late 60's, as kids we did kids things - climbing trees and making rope swings, fishing, playing and watching football and it was all considered quite safe. It was quite natural for us then to see, become interested in, then wish to be a part of, football terrace culture and fashion. Oh, how I wanted that surfer jacket I'd seen the 'big lads' wear on the Kippax when I was 12 or 13, how proud I was when I got one that Christmas. From there the other clothes followed, the Levi's, the brogues, even some heavy boots - all copied from what I'd seen on the terraces. At that time youth fashion was still 'late mod' and worn by many types of youths, not just those who followed football. We saw these lads involved in trouble at matches and found it exciting. In early 1969 however, we started to see the newspaper reports of 'skinheads'. Who were these 'skinheads'? - fanatical football supporters, dressed in their Levi's and boots who would fight with rivals at football matches. Wait a minute .......

The lad next door but one (also a City fan) who went to a different school, dressed like me and now had his hair cut short and 3 of us in my class decided that we too would 'become skinheads'. (the first in our school!) What were our influences then? Firstly: the football terraces which through the 1969-1972 period were very influential for us. Secondly: some of the older lads who lived near us - they seemed to know what to wear, but initially we didn't get too close and thirdly: the newspapers. These were now full of stories about skinheads - how they were hostile to motorbike riding greasers and dirty, long haired, scruffy, drug taking hippies. In fact, some made out that the skinheads emerged as a direct rejection of the mod 'movement' turning into hippies, so everything that hippies stood for, skinheads were against and viola! there you have it, a new generation of young skinheads who were antl-drugs. I repeat, I was 14 years old, so were my closest skinhead mates - we read it in the papers, we believed it. Having said that, I will state categorically that from 1969-1972, later in which time I was going to Soul clubs and parties, I never saw or even heard of drugs being taken, it was just completely off the radar. Most of us didn't even smoke ('though, coincidentally, I did have some non-skinhead friends who did smoke) - maybe we were saving all our money for football and clothes. I am certain of this because about 3 years later, when I was a student I had to present a paper (It was nowhere near grand enough to be a thesis) for the 'Youth In Society' module where I looked at gang culture. As research I read a book about the Roundhouse gang from Liverpool in which they talked about experimenting with pills and I recall thinking, "what the f*ck's that all about?", so alien was it too me. Interestingly, they soon "gave it the elbow" as it "did their heads in", made them moody and caused them to fall out with each other.

On the subject of college life, during the mid 70s I spent 3 years away from home on campus (never really went back.....) and only came across drug use on one occasion. We were invited to a house party by a friend of a friend and when we got there they weren't really 'our sort' of people, being of the long haired, bearded/mustachiod, flared jeans, scruffy t-shirt types of students (so were the blokes!). They were just sat around smoking, drinking and listening to rock music. This was not our idea of a great night out and we couldn't help noticing a strange smell in the air. After a polite passage of time we 'made our excuses and left'. Not everybody fitted the long haired, dope smoking layabout student image - though clearly some did! The rest of us were getting our 'highs' in other ways.

Very cool post, Roytonboy. The middle paragraph especially: Looks like the whole "Life imitating Art" thing? I wonder how much of the evolution of skinhead was down to kids imitating the exaggerated newspaper accounts of skinheads as opposed to the "organic" evolution by imitating one's peers and elders in the street.

 

[AnthoMoz]

Good evening,

I have been researching the meaning of "The Saint" tattoo for a little while -after seing it on badges and skinhead's skins- ; I even asked a skinhead friend, in vain.
...then I stumbled on your thread and a picture of a Simon Templar tattoo, but without explanations.

-----Could you please tell me more about the meaning of this tattoo ?

All the best from Dijon, France
Anthony

 

[flyfronted]

Good evening,

I have been researching the meaning of "The Saint" tattoo for a little while -after seing it on badges and skinhead's skins- ; I even asked a skinhead friend, in vain.
...then I stumbled on your thread and a picture of a Simon Templar tattoo, but without explanations.

-----Could you please tell me more about the meaning of this tattoo ?

All the best from Dijon, France
Anthony

id imagine it was THE only drawing kids could do to themselves with indian ink in the late 60s early 70s

 

[Con Seanery]



Good evening,

I have been researching the meaning of "The Saint" tattoo for a little while -after seing it on badges and skinhead's skins- ; I even asked a skinhead friend, in vain.
...then I stumbled on your thread and a picture of a Simon Templar tattoo, but without explanations.

-----Could you please tell me more about the meaning of this tattoo ?

All the best from Dijon, France
Anthony

Hi Anthony,
I cant answer for the originals, but I have the St. character tattoo & got it when I was a kid. Tattoo's can mean anything to anyone, but basic reason was that I liked the look of the emblem & it was readily recognizable by most people. In the 80's it was considered a throw-back to earlier times, & with additions to the icon (like red boots or whatever), that type of update tends to give it your own twist that would be recognizable by most people that run in your circles/subculture or whatever. For me, Templar was a cool guy, an anti-hero type along the lines of Robin Hood. Guy dressed smart, was funny/well spoken, good with the ladies, & a good fighter. The symbol was his calling card & to me was an icon for street smarts (basically).

And also this

id imagine it was THE only drawing kids could do to themselves with indian ink in the late 60s early 70s

 

[AnthoMoz]

Thank you very much for your answers, gentlemen !

Cheers,
A

 

[AnthoMoz]

Hi Anthony,
I cant answer for the originals, but I have the St. character tattoo & got it when I was a kid. Tattoo's can mean anything to anyone, but basic reason was that I liked the look of the emblem & it was readily recognizable by most people. In the 80's it was considered a throw-back to earlier times, & with additions to the icon (like red boots or whatever), that type of update tends to give it your own twist that would be recognizable by most people that run in your circles/subculture or whatever. For me, Templar was a cool guy, an anti-hero type along the lines of Robin Hood. Guy dressed smart, was funny/well spoken, good with the ladies, & a good fighter. The symbol was his calling card & to me was an icon for street smarts (basically).

And also this

Hi Anthony,
I cant answer for the originals, but I have the St. character tattoo & got it when I was a kid. Tattoo's can mean anything to anyone, but basic reason was that I liked the look of the emblem & it was readily recognizable by most people. In the 80's it was considered a throw-back to earlier times, & with additions to the icon (like red boots or whatever), that type of update tends to give it your own twist that would be recognizable by most people that run in your circles/subculture or whatever. For me, Templar was a cool guy, an anti-hero type along the lines of Robin Hood. Guy dressed smart, was funny/well spoken, good with the ladies, & a good fighter. The symbol was his calling card & to me was an icon for street smarts (basically).

And also this

Thank you very much for your answers, gentlemen !

Cheers,
A