Berluti-Very appealing to me :)

[ter1413]

The bag is eh. Nothing special IMO.

 

[JohnMRobie]

What do folk here generally think about "cloning" items you like but with an unapproachable (to you, generally) price tag?

I know this gives me away as an uncultured pleb, but to follow up a previous line of conversation -- if I liked that bag, and wanted one, looking at a price tag of $4000, I have to imagine I could find a leather shop willing to make me one for far less money. A shop that already makes bags, and has a reputation for quality.

Is this gauche? Contributing to rip-off culture? Or do we just call this "inspired by," and for the price, make some changes to personalize it / customize it so we like it even more? Do we call it IP theft, or do we just say that it's a fairly basic shape and 'all good artists steal anyways'?

Depends on the product and how close to copying you’re trying to get. It’s possible to be inspired by something while being different.
For example: The original

Similar but different. A much, much better maker and bespoke:

 

[JFWR]

What do folk here generally think about "cloning" items you like but with an unapproachable (to you, generally) price tag?

I know this gives me away as an uncultured pleb, but to follow up a previous line of conversation -- if I liked that bag, and wanted one, looking at a price tag of $4000, I have to imagine I could find a leather shop willing to make me one for far less money. A shop that already makes bags, and has a reputation for quality.

Is this gauche? Contributing to rip-off culture? Or do we just call this "inspired by," and for the price, make some changes to personalize it / customize it so we like it even more? Do we call it IP theft, or do we just say that it's a fairly basic shape and 'all good artists steal anyways'?

I see no reason why anyone should feel ashamed to have another maker make something inspired by another look.

CNES shoemaker in Singapore/Vietnam, for instance, can basically make you anything you want MTO. They have quality artisans (not sweatshop types) and you can get whatever style you want.

Now you might want the original as you think it's better quality and made with better materials, or it might be brand whoring. If you're brand whoring, then you're a fool; if you buy because you legitimately love the craftsmanship and the quality, or say the history behind it, then that's nice.

I frankly would rather have something amazingly well made of quality material from a no name maker, then some over priced garbage from a named maker.

You see the same thing in expensive liquors. I can get a 1967 Tomintoul for 500 dollars; a 40 year old MacCallan is 25,000.

 

[othertravel]

Speaking of Blake stitched shoes, Tom Ford’s models are pretty good (and not as expensive as Berluti).

The waist is very tight and reminiscent of some bespoke designs.

 

[allegro]

What do folk here generally think about "cloning" items you like but with an unapproachable (to you, generally) price tag?

I know this gives me away as an uncultured pleb, but to follow up a previous line of conversation -- if I liked that bag, and wanted one, looking at a price tag of $4000, I have to imagine I could find a leather shop willing to make me one for far less money. A shop that already makes bags, and has a reputation for quality.

Is this gauche? Contributing to rip-off culture? Or do we just call this "inspired by," and for the price, make some changes to personalize it / customize it so we like it even more? Do we call it IP theft, or do we just say that it's a fairly basic shape and 'all good artists steal anyways'?

If we are talking about an almost exact replica, then this is clearly a theft in my opinion. There are many fake Louis Vuitton bags that are at a fraction of the original price for example.

Even for simple things like a bookcase, to make it really work, the designer needs to spend a lot of time measuring and visualizing, and thinking about the colour that will match the room. Same with bags, the dimensions, and locations of various pockets/zippers will all affect your enjoyment of the bag and it is quite time-consuming to come up with something that works.

If we are talking about using similar ideas but creating something different/unique, I am generally okay with this. In this case, if someone takes the idea of removable straps to create a tote bag/backpack but the design/appearance looks different (and does not present itself as a brand name product) and is tailored to the person's needs, this is all fine.

 

[gimpwiz]

I appreciate y'all's perspectives. I laid mine out above - while I generally turn my nose at rip-offs and fakes, I would much prefer a custom order of something inspired (even very heavily inspired to the point of being very similar) than the branded original at a higher price. Perhaps that's unfair to whomever had the vision to create the original, but, well.

You see the same thing in expensive liquors. I can get a 1967 Tomintoul for 500 dollars; a 40 year old MacCallan is 25,000.

I do love the comparison. I also love spirits, especially whisky!

Macallan is an interesting case study. They have immense brand strength. They've helped this along, especially in Asia, by having brand reps pose as whisky experts and run tasting classes targeted at the wealthy, or at least those with enough disposable income to pay their prices. There was also a good bull run of men in China buying bottles to gift upwards to bosses and/or government functionaries at various levels. They're not the only ones, but probably the scotch brand that did so the most. (Some wine brands did much the same thing.) This coincided (and to a small extent fueled) the massively rising popularity of Scotch, especially outside the UK, that we saw most obviously through the 2010s, which apart from causing an obvious increase in price almost across the board, also saw a big reduction of stored stocks. Realistically, the results have been largely that the best value stuff they sold - age-statement entry level stuff (eg, macallan 12), especially cask strength (macallan 12 cs) have been discontinued; they are replaced by non-age-statement entry level bottles, and more expensive 12-year-old-plus bottles. Even at the $100+ range they love to push NAS bottlings, which are not a problem per se, but are very heavily branded/marketed. Understandable given they simple have less full casks of adequate age to tap into and new casks will take at least a decade to mature. A lowering of value, essentially. But at the highest end range, like 30, 40, 50 year old, it's just wankery. They make rather few of these, and by all accounts, they're not very good once they hit absurd ages. But they love to position them everywhere from airport duty-free stores to costco of all places, so people can ooh and ahh over a $50,000 bottle, which helps people fix a very simple idea in their heads: "macallan = $50,000." I believe the technical term is called anchoring. Thus a bottle at a mere $80 seems a great deal.

(Same thing Apple did by selling the Apple Watch Edition in 2015, solid gold and $11,000 - $17,000 depending on options. Immediately anchored the watch as a luxury product, not a piece of tech that'll be outdated in a couple years.)

Anyone who's tried a couple dozen whiskies will probably tell you that (eg) Aberlour A'bunadh or Edradour CS will get you cask-strength sherry bombs at a price and quality similar to the long-gone Macallan 12 CS, without the exceptionally heavy branding effort. But you gotta try stuff!

To be fair, as far as I can tell, a 1967 Tomintoul is an independent bottling, which is always much less expensive than if it's from the distillery (and also why prices vary wildly depending on whose bottling you buy). I am a huge fan of independent bottlings, but a much fairer contrast would be Glenfarclas 40yo, which is ~$1200 and an "OB."

To me, going the custom route, with heavy inspiration, is a lot like the independent bottling. It's a stretch of the metaphor since an IB starts with the same juice - but it's matured and bottled (and blended if from more than one cask) by someone other than the distillery, and under direction of someone other than the master distiller. This might be similar: start with the same general DNA, shape, form, purpose, but under the hands of a different master craftsman and to suit a different, and possibly much more specific profile. Also, a unique piece; once it's gone, there will never be one identical to it, just like a single cask from decade(s) ago.

Sorry for the diversion

 

[allegro]

I appreciate y'all's perspectives. I laid mine out above - while I generally turn my nose at rip-offs and fakes, I would much prefer a custom order of something inspired (even very heavily inspired to the point of being very similar) than the branded original at a higher price. Perhaps that's unfair to whomever had the vision to create the original, but, well.



I do love the comparison. I also love spirits, especially whisky!

Macallan is an interesting case study. They have immense brand strength. They've helped this along, especially in Asia, by having brand reps pose as whisky experts and run tasting classes targeted at the wealthy, or at least those with enough disposable income to pay their prices. There was also a good bull run of men in China buying bottles to gift upwards to bosses and/or government functionaries at various levels. They're not the only ones, but probably the scotch brand that did so the most. (Some wine brands did much the same thing.) This coincided (and to a small extent fueled) the massively rising popularity of Scotch, especially outside the UK, that we saw most obviously through the 2010s, which apart from causing an obvious increase in price almost across the board, also saw a big reduction of stored stocks. Realistically, the results have been largely that the best value stuff they sold - age-statement entry level stuff (eg, macallan 12), especially cask strength (macallan 12 cs) have been discontinued; they are replaced by non-age-statement entry level bottles, and more expensive 12-year-old-plus bottles. Even at the $100+ range they love to push NAS bottlings, which are not a problem per se, but are very heavily branded/marketed. Understandable given they simple have less full casks of adequate age to tap into and new casks will take at least a decade to mature. A lowering of value, essentially. But at the highest end range, like 30, 40, 50 year old, it's just wankery. They make rather few of these, and by all accounts, they're not very good once they hit absurd ages. But they love to position them everywhere from airport duty-free stores to costco of all places, so people can ooh and ahh over a $50,000 bottle, which helps people fix a very simple idea in their heads: "macallan = $50,000." I believe the technical term is called anchoring. Thus a bottle at a mere $80 seems a great deal.

(Same thing Apple did by selling the Apple Watch Edition in 2015, solid gold and $11,000 - $17,000 depending on options. Immediately anchored the watch as a luxury product, not a piece of tech that'll be outdated in a couple years.)

Anyone who's tried a couple dozen whiskies will probably tell you that (eg) Aberlour A'bunadh or Edradour CS will get you cask-strength sherry bombs at a price and quality similar to the long-gone Macallan 12 CS, without the exceptionally heavy branding effort. But you gotta try stuff!

To be fair, as far as I can tell, a 1967 Tomintoul is an independent bottling, which is always much less expensive than if it's from the distillery (and also why prices vary wildly depending on whose bottling you buy). I am a huge fan of independent bottlings, but a much fairer contrast would be Glenfarclas 40yo, which is ~$1200 and an "OB."

To me, going the custom route, with heavy inspiration, is a lot like the independent bottling. It's a stretch of the metaphor since an IB starts with the same juice - but it's matured and bottled (and blended if from more than one cask) by someone other than the distillery, and under direction of someone other than the master distiller. This might be similar: start with the same general DNA, shape, form, purpose, but under the hands of a different master craftsman and to suit a different, and possibly much more specific profile. Also, a unique piece; once it's gone, there will never be one identical to it, just like a single cask from decade(s) ago.

Sorry for the diversion

I often think this is where we start to get involved in things like copyright law, and patent law. I remembered an Australian furniture maker was sued in court for replica furnitures but reached a settlement (Replica Furniture – Herman Miller vs Matt Blatt (broadsheet.com.au)).

There is nothing wrong with being inspired by ideas, for example, Chopin's famous fantasia impromptu had exactly the same notes as Beethoven's moonlight sonata, 3rd movement (Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata vs Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu - YouTube). But if you listen to the pieces in their own right from start to finish, they are very different works. Chopin apparently took things to a much higher standard, and this piece of work was among the ones he asked to be burned after his death. Fortunately, they did not oblige.

In the case of Rachmaninoff piano concerto no. 2 movement 2 however (Khatia Buniatishvili : Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No.2 2nd Movement arte HD - YouTube) this was clearly a case of plagiarism and a settlement was reached in that case.

We are all influenced by people around us, this is true, but there is a distinction between shamelessly copying someone vs bring that idea across and making it into something special.

 

[DorianGreen]

Depends on the product and how close to copying you’re trying to get. It’s possible to be inspired by something while being different.
For example: The original
View attachment 1874509
Similar but different. A much, much better maker and bespoke:
View attachment 1874510

The "copy" looks actually much better.

 

[JFWR]

If we are talking about an almost exact replica, then this is clearly a theft in my opinion. There are many fake Louis Vuitton bags that are at a fraction of the original price for example.

Even for simple things like a bookcase, to make it really work, the designer needs to spend a lot of time measuring and visualizing, and thinking about the colour that will match the room. Same with bags, the dimensions, and locations of various pockets/zippers will all affect your enjoyment of the bag and it is quite time-consuming to come up with something that works.

If we are talking about using similar ideas but creating something different/unique, I am generally okay with this. In this case, if someone takes the idea of removable straps to create a tote bag/backpack but the design/appearance looks different (and does not present itself as a brand name product) and is tailored to the person's needs, this is all fine.

To be clear, the type of making I envisioned was not a rip off of a branded item like a LV bag with that print. That is wrongly identifying the bag as a LV bag, and chances are you are going to get a crap product like all cheap knock offs are.

I mean like, for instance, the Alex loafer. If I like that general design and I go to a shoe maker and say, "Make me a shoe like this" then I see no reason that's a problem. That's no more concerning than the fact that everyone makes a pair of boat shoes that look identical to Sperry.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

A 2300 dollar Blake stitched, square toed, over patinated loafer?

Yesm
very basic factory made shoes that show no redeeming hallmarks of quality and craftsmanship.

A basic block shoe with heel not even closely cut to upper.

No shape and sculpting like some of the better shoes sold today from Asia.
They have fallen well behind in antiquing too.
Berluti shoes are o.k for year 2,000,
but they have gotten lazy and the competition has well passed them.

These might not be rtw lasts,
but me still think they could do better than those Berluti blocks above.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

Speaking of Blake stitched shoes, Tom Ford’s models are pretty good (and not as expensive as Berluti).

The waist is very tight and reminiscent of some bespoke designs.

View attachment 1874554

Tom Ford shoes try to imitate bespoke,
but it basic factory made shoes that fall far short of true elite artisans.
That waist is dreadful,
no fine craftsmanship at all.

All these shoes are o.k if you are not a shoe connoisseur and want the basic look,
but they lack numerous features that real shoe people look for.
We also do not like imitation shoes.

 

[allegro]

Yesm
very basic factory made shoes that show no redeeming hallmarks of quality and craftsmanship.

View attachment 1875269

A basic block shoe with heel not even closely cut to upper.

View attachment 1875270

No shape and sculpting like some of the better shoes sold today from Asia.
They have fallen well behind in antiquing too.
Berluti shoes are o.k for year 2,000,
but they have gotten lazy and the competition has well passed them.

These might not be rtw lasts,
but me still think they could do better than those Berluti blocks above.

To me, I still prefer the colouring style from Berluti as it seems more tastefully done. Graziat's colouring based on the pictures you posted is a bit too abrupt for my liking I also find their style a bit strange as the front part seems a little too short.

The Berluti shoe you posted isn't to my liking either

 

[Son Of Saphir]

Will confess however,
the Berluti in real life look better than in photos.
Was tempted to buy a pair,
but poor price to quality ratio.
Would wear it maybe once or twice a year,
so not worth it.
Would get much more satisfaction from a handmade shoe.

Seriously considered Berluti bespoke through a trunk show like set up,
but at 10,000 USD quoted 2 - 3 years ago it was a real sticker shock.
+ made much worse with overseas currency conversion.
Probably much more now.
Ouch.

 

[SartorialSkin]

I actually have this backpack. It's super functional, durable, and unique. I love carrying it on my side with top handles and using it as a backpack--the all leather backpack straps (hard to find in a mens backpack) are a standout in my opinion.

I have seen a few threads where people just hate the design, but I really find some of their products quite appealing. The product shown here can be used as a backpack and as a tote bag and there are nice design features like a separate compartment for a laptop and generous space to hold various items. I also really love the colour of this bag so I ended up buying this for myself

Sure, Berluti products are not cheap, but having owned shoes and belt from Berluti, these really hold up very well with prolonged use for me.

At one point, Berluti had these canvas logo type of bags and I hated these, the shopkeeper told me these were not popular so they are going to phase these out and these are currently on sale.

The Berluti store that I was at was never full, and I am often the only customer so I guess my taste is probably not conforming to the general public

 

[allegro]

I actually have this backpack. It's super functional, durable, and unique. I love carrying it on my side with top handles and using it as a backpack--the all leather backpack straps (hard to find in a mens backpack) are a standout in my opinion.

Agree I think this bag needs to be tried out in person. I had no desire to buy it when I first saw it online but upon trying this out in the store, found it to be functional and unique also It will definitely be one of the most used bags in my collection.