The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

[wurger]

nice looking watch. Are you going strap or bracelet?

definitely rec white over the black

Looking at the various posts, got me itching to get a complication watch; with my current budget, I am looking at the Longines Master Collection L2.738.4.71.6, 41mm.

I am preferring the white dial over the black dial, which is L2.738.4.51.6.

What do you guys think?

bracelet, I hardly ever wear my leather belt Longines.

 

[RogerP]

Silver dial all the way on that Longines. I'd wear it on a strap as it is a dresser piece, but it looks nice on the bracelet as well. Better to buy it that way in any event, since you can always add an aftermarket strap of your choosing.

 

[Belligero]



Ha, I can see why you would think that, but truth be told I have a huge amount of respect for Rolex. In fact over the last year I've come to really appreciate them even more. I can't say a bad thing about the brand as a manufacturer. True, aesthetically many of their models don't speak to me the way they do to others, but I really hold the brand in high regard.

I would've much preferred his El Primero Steel Daytona over the gold Sub personally. I admit I don't have the knowledge to appreciate all the subtleties in the different dials and what makes them rare though. I was a little nervous watching him wear the gold Sub during that trial week - in one shot, he was wearing a bracelet with the metal clasp almost rubbing against the watch! Seems a no-no for a trial run!

I was thinking the same thing; the 18K Submariner is great in its own way, but I think the Zenith Daytona, especially in stainless, is a much more practical choice as the mythical "one watch", as well as being more inherently interesting.

An 18K '80s Submariner on bracelet can be completely bad-ass for those who can pull off the look, or as a special-occasion piece for mere mortals. But as a daily wearer, I'm not so sure... plus it's a bit compromised from a purist's standpoint. The 4030-movement Daytona doesn't have the cognitive dissonance factor of a precious-metal diver's watch. Not saying that I wouldn't love an 18K Sub (or better yet, older GMT), just that I probably wouldn't dump a 16520 and a nice steel Sub (can't remember if was plus cash in this case, but I bet it was) for one.

Regarding that generation of Daytonæ, my local watchmaker friend spent three weeks this June at Rolex's advanced course in Geneva, where one of the calibres they covered was the 4030 — along with the OysterQuartz, but that one deserves its own post as it's an under-appreciated gem of a watch. He talked about how much he enjoyed learning about and working on the modified Zenith movement, and how much his appreciation for it has increased after getting training straight from the mothership. He considers it to be one of the best examples of classic horizontally-coupled chronograph construction ever produced from a design standpoint, and the modifications that constitute 50% the base-movement parts make it an even more refined and reliable movement than the quite-good-on-its-own standard El Primero. Zenith has gradually phased in some of Rolex's refinements to its current-production versions as well; that was news to me. He said that he has rarely felt as satisfied as a watchmaker as when he was doing the course work on that one, and that he looks forward to having them on his workbench more than ever. No wonder they were so hard to get at retail; quite a bit of traditional watchmaking effort went into each one. The newer one is an "engineering masterpiece" in his opinion, but relies far less on traditional methods for its manufacture.

While on the subject of classic chronographs, another detail that I remembered from our conversation was the description of some of the subtler ways that a high-grade chronograph movement, such any produced by Patek Philippe, differs from one that's less finely finished; the switching mechanism for the chronograph wheel is hand-filed to as fine of a tolerance as possible to minimize the jump of the seconds hand when the system is engaged. However, the current Patek chrono movement instead uses a vertical clutch, which completely eliminates any jump. I guess you kind of have to be a watch geek to give a crap about this stuff, but I really enjoyed the conversation.

So yes, I figure that the show's narrator probably should have kept the 16520 as well. But it just goes to show the inherent irrationality of the game, and as much as we try to analyze it from a rational standpoint, it's subjective in the end. The piece certainly did a good job of showing the capriciousness and emotional elements that exist. Plus it's not difficult to understand the appeal of an old-school Submariner in gold; they look tremendous in person.

Returning to Zenith movements, I recently got to talking to someone who was sporting a Vintage 1969 El Primero in 18K, and it was simply a knockout. What a sculpture; the statement that really stayed with me from the Tom Bolt feature was that "watches are for wearing", and this one was absolutely great on the wrist:

Spoiler: Zenith Vintage 1969 chrono in 18K

 

[wurger]

nice looking watch. Are you going strap or bracelet?

definitely rec white over the black

Looking at the various posts, got me itching to get a complication watch; with my current budget, I am looking at the Longines Master Collection L2.738.4.71.6, 41mm.

Silver dial all the way on that Longines. I'd wear it on a strap as it is a dresser piece, but it looks nice on the bracelet as well. Better to buy it that way in any event, since you can always add an aftermarket strap of your choosing.

Yes silver dial it is, what is the general consensus on Longines retrograde moon phases? Are they too much to pay for a Longines?

 

[no frills]

A great watch with a very VC case (using flared lugs). What a lot of people like about that watch is the engraved moon phase disk made entirely of 18K gold on the gold version...I believe its in PT on the PT version. I've only see that model once in person, but its really beautiful.

Yes, moon + stars clearly applied, in precious metals.

Frills, that VC is absolutely stunning. That has to be one of my favorite VCs I have ever seen. That is just spectacular. I love the lugs.

Isn't it lovely?

Belligero - great video. had not seen that before, thanks for sharing it.

frills - fantastic VC. notice that although there is no dot between the 31 and the 1, the 31 is red and the 1 is black, so as one would never see it as 311. well done VC!

I thought you might point that out!

Love that VC, Frilly - and although it's still a lot of money, in terms of value, it seems a steal compared to a PP of Lange with similar functions. Nice size, beautiful shape with those lugs, proper grail territory! I love that moonphase....platinum for me, please.

And yes, it's still a lot of money but here's a platinum one that cleared in a Sotheby's HK auction for around $65K including buyer's premium:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2012/important-watches-hk0389/lot.2146.lotnum.html

While on the subject of classic chronographs, another detail that I remembered from our conversation was the description of some of the subtler ways that a high-grade chronograph movement, such any produced by Patek Philippe, differs from one that's less finely finished; the switching mechanism for the chronograph wheel is hand-filed to as fine of a tolerance as possible to minimize the jump of the seconds hand when the system is engaged. However, the current Patek chrono movement instead uses a vertical clutch, which completely eliminates any jump. I guess you kind of have to be a watch geek to give a crap about this stuff, but I really enjoyed the conversation.

We give a crap about this stuff, don't we!

 

[in stitches]



Well you guys should like what I have on the way ... I've been fully sucked into the TWAT Vortex

. Ha. Thanks for all the advice from those on the thread, will be posting when the new guy arrives.

cant wait to see it!!!!

Silver dial all the way on that Longines. I'd wear it on a strap as it is a dresser piece, but it looks nice on the bracelet as well. Better to buy it that way in any event, since you can always add an aftermarket strap of your choosing.

agree to all of this 100%. -- sidebar - for anyone unsure about rolex as a brand, watchtime did some EXCELLENT interviews and articles on rolex. the brand, the watches, the facility, the processes.... they are fantastic. almost impossible to read all of it and not be awed by who they are as a company and a manufacture. im sure you can find it online in their archive, and i highly recommend reading those pieces.

 

[no frills]

So I'm not sure if I missed this being posted on TWAT, but this article did come out a few days ago:

http://www.theprodigalguide.com/201...rand-builds-worlds-first-atomic-pocket-watch/

Now, it's a pocket watch, but it has interesting complications:



1. Hours 2. Minutes 3. Seconds 4. Annual wheel 5. Magnetic compass 6. Longitude – coarse scale 7. Not shown due to patent applications 8. Day of week 9. Humidity 10. Date 11. Sidereal seconds 12. Power remaining 13. Tide forecast 14. Tide height 15. Temperature 16. Atmospheric pressure 17. Latitude – minutes 18. Latitude – degrees 19. Sidereal hours 20. Sidereal minutes 21. Longitude – minutes 22. Longitude – degrees 23. Microwave resonator status 24. Charge status 25. Atomic resonance lock indicator 26. Clock status – atomic / ACXO / TCXO 27. Caesium oven status 28. Laser status

And it seems rather accurate.

It is also 82mm in diameter and 25mm thick, which means I can wear it on my chest and look like a superhero.

Thoughts, TWAT brethren?

 

[Belligero]



We give a crap about this stuff, don't we!

Thought you might enjoy that!

One thing I'll say about the horizontally-coupled mechanisms that you'll likely appreciate... they definitely look better. There's a lot less to see with a vertical mechanism, and it vastly reduces the amount of skilled hand work involved. Details, for sure, but someone who's into high-grade watches is generally going to have an interest because these nuances are what a high-end movement is all about. There's more than one way to solve the puzzle.

 

[no frills]

sidebar - for anyone unsure about rolex as a brand, watchtime did some EXCELLENT interviews and articles on rolex. the brand, the watches, the facility, the processes.... they are fantastic. almost impossible to read all of it and not be awed by who they are as a company and a manufacture. im sure you can find it online in their archive, and i highly recommend reading those pieces.

If you don't care much for Rolex but care about Patek, for the record I've spoken to several master watchmakers and administrators at Patek USA and Geneva and they all say that they do reference Rolex for the quality of their production (especially given the numbers they produce), and even their management practices (with their watchmakers, automation, pricing, etc). I have seen many watchmakers who work for Patek - but wear a Rolex. Quote from Thierry Stern here: "Rolex is another one I respect a lot. The quality of Rolex is fantastic, and to keep that so high making as many watches as they do is incredible. I would love to see the Rolex factory, but they never let me in!"

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2012/1/12/interview-thierry-stern-president-of-patek-philippe.html

If you don't care one bit for Rolex or Patek, then... I guess we can share a cup of coffee and talk about other things.

 

[Dino944]

I would've much preferred his El Primero Steel Daytona over the gold Sub personally. I admit I don't have the knowledge to appreciate all the subtleties in the different dials and what makes them rare though. I was a little nervous watching him wear the gold Sub during that trial week - in one shot, he was wearing a bracelet with the metal clasp almost rubbing against the watch! Seems a no-no for a trial run!

Well as an owner of a 16520 Steel Daytona with El Primero based movement, I have to say myself would not have made that trade. For me the SS Daytona with El Primero base was a grail watch, and took me a few years to locate and obtain at list price. Its not as practical as the current model (shorter power reserve, and the bracelet and clasp are not solid machine pieces), but I find the dial a tad more attractive and refined with the smaller lum markers, I prefer the continuous seconds placement at 9 rather than 6, and from what someone had told me years ago, there were so many modifications and improvements to the El Primero base, that is was really the closest thing to a hand made movement that Rolex was making at the time, or would ever make again. I do have the new Daytona also, and its a great watch, better in almost every way in terms of practicality, but there are certain nuances that will always make the El Primero based Daytonas special to me.

I was thinking the same thing; the 18K Submariner is great in its own way, but I think the Zenith Daytona, especially in stainless, is a much more practical choice as the mythical "one watch", as well as being more inherently interesting.

An 18K '80s Submariner on bracelet can be completely bad-ass for those who can pull off the look, or as a special-occasion piece for mere mortals. But as a daily wearer, I'm not so sure... plus it's a bit compromised from a purist's standpoint. The 4030-movement Daytona doesn't have the cognitive dissonance factor of a precious-metal diver's watch. Not saying that I wouldn't love an 18K Sub (or better yet, older GMT), just that I probably wouldn't dump a 16520 and a nice steel Sub (can't remember if was plus cash in this case, but I bet it was) for one.

Regarding that generation of Daytonæ, my local watchmaker friend spent three weeks this June at Rolex's advanced course in Geneva, where one of the calibres they covered was the 4030 — along with the OysterQuartz, but that one deserves its own post as it's an under-appreciated gem of a watch. He talked about how much he enjoyed learning about and working on the modified Zenith movement, and how much his appreciation for it has increased after getting training straight from the mothership. He considers it to be one of the best examples of classic horizontally-coupled chronograph construction ever produced from a design standpoint, and the modifications that constitute 50% the base-movement parts make it an even more refined and reliable movement than the quite-good-on-its-own standard El Primero. Zenith has gradually phased in some of Rolex's refinements to its current-production versions as well; that was news to me. He said that he has rarely felt as satisfied as a watchmaker as when he was doing the course work on that one, and that he looks forward to having them on his workbench more than ever. No wonder they were so hard to get at retail; quite a bit of traditional watchmaking effort went into each one. The newer one is an "engineering masterpiece" in his opinion, but relies far less on traditional methods for its manufacture.

While on the subject of classic chronographs, another detail that I remembered from our conversation was the description of some of the subtler ways that a high-grade chronograph movement, such any produced by Patek Philippe, differs from one that's less finely finished; the switching mechanism for the chronograph wheel is hand-filed to as fine of a tolerance as possible to minimize the jump of the seconds hand when the system is engaged. However, the current Patek chrono movement instead uses a vertical clutch, which completely eliminates any jump. I guess you kind of have to be a watch geek to give a crap about this stuff, but I really enjoyed the conversation.

So yes, I figure that the show's narrator probably should have kept the 16520 as well. But it just goes to show the inherent irrationality of the game, and as much as we try to analyze it from a rational standpoint, it's subjective in the end. The piece certainly did a good job of showing the capriciousness and emotional elements that exist. Plus it's not difficult to understand the appeal of an old-school Submariner in gold; they look tremendous in person.

Returning to Zenith movements, I recently got to talking to someone who was sporting a Vintage 1969 El Primero in 18K, and it was simply a knockout. What a sculpture; the statement that really stayed with me from the Tom Bolt feature was that "watches are for wearing", and this one was absolutely great on the wrist:

Yes, it did cost the narrator his Daytona, a Sub, a Bell & Ross, and a Bvlgari, plus I believe cash because he said the 18K Sub was a bit beyond his budget.

Certainly interesting to hear about your watchmaker friend's impressions of the cal 4030 Daytonas and OYSTERQUARTZ. I own each in all steel and they are both fantastic pieces...although as your friend suggested the OQ is rather under appreciated (often quickly dismissed because it is a quartz watch). I probably would not have traded my a Daytona with cal 4030 toward a gold Sub, but everyone is different, and whether its the aesthetics of the all gold watch, its vintage style dial, its movement, or something else that appealed to him we don't know. In addition, sometimes people do get caught up in the newness of a piece they do not own. More telling as to whether it was a good choice for him, is whether there is follow up information as to what currently resides on his wrist. Does he still own the vintage gold Sub or is it gone and has he traded it for something else. Every now and then I've read stories on forums where someone sells/trades a watch to get a different watch, only to regret the sale or trade and we later find out that the person bought back or bought another example of the watch they traded (often at a higher cost than if they kept their original). Collectors can be finicky, fickle, and at times impossible to predict or understand...and perhaps that is what makes this hobby so interesting.

 

[in stitches]



If you don't care much for Rolex but care about Patek, for the record I've spoken to several master watchmakers and administrators at Patek USA and Geneva and they all say that they do reference Rolex for the quality of their production (especially given the numbers they produce), and even their management practices (with their watchmakers, automation, pricing, etc).  I have seen many watchmakers who work for Patek - but wear a Rolex.  Quote from Thierry Stern here: "Rolex is another one I respect a lot. The quality of Rolex is fantastic, and to keep that so high making as many watches as they do is incredible. I would love to see the Rolex factory, but they never let me in!"

very interesting. and great quote, lol.

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2012/1/12/interview-thierry-stern-president-of-patek-philippe.html

If you don't care one bit for Rolex or Patek, then... I guess we can be enemies for life

FTFY

 

[NonServiam]



I was thinking the same thing; the 18K Submariner is great in its own way, but I think the Zenith Daytona, especially in stainless, is a much more practical choice as the mythical "one watch", as well as being more inherently interesting.

An 18K '80s Submariner on bracelet can be completely bad-ass for those who can pull off the look, or as a special-occasion piece for mere mortals. But as a daily wearer, I'm not so sure... plus it's a bit compromised from a purist's standpoint. The 4030-movement Daytona doesn't have the cognitive dissonance factor of a precious-metal diver's watch. Not saying that I wouldn't love an 18K Sub (or better yet, older GMT), just that I probably wouldn't dump a 16520 and a nice steel Sub (can't remember if was plus cash in this case, but I bet it was) for one.

Owning both the transitional 18k Sub in question and a Daytona (albeit the newer model), AND a couple of steel Subs: neither would I. Its main attraction is the nipple dial, which really sets it apart from the newer 18k Subs, but for which you pay a hefty premium. A gold/steel Sub or GMT of similar vintage will also get you that dial. If all you want is a gold Sub, I think the later 16618 is a killer deal. You'll get a lot of gold Rolex for your money.

But I wont't deny it, the nipple dialled 18k is a watch with a considerable magic to it. I can't think of any watch in my collection that has a similar wrist presence.

I must admit that my 16808 is a substitute for the 18k plexi 1680 I really wanted, but never found. I would still make the switch I think, plexi is sexi. But for now, I love it!

I'd be dying to go see whatever my AD brought in for me.  You have incredible self restraint!  

Not sure that label fits any man owning more than a dousin expensive anachronistically imprecise time telling mechanical trinkets just because he likes the way they make him feel ...

Well as an owner of a 16520 Steel Daytona with El Primero based movement, I have to say myself would not have made that trade.  For me the SS Daytona with El Primero base was a grail watch, and took me a few years to locate and obtain at list price.  Its not as practical as the current model (shorter power reserve, and the bracelet and clasp are not solid machine pieces), but I find the dial a tad more attractive and refined with the smaller lum markers, I prefer the continuous seconds placement at 9 rather than 6, and from what someone had told me years ago, there were so many modifications and improvements to the El Primero base, that is was really the closest thing to a hand made movement that Rolex was making at the time, or would ever make again.  I do have the new Daytona also, and its a great watch, better in almost every way in terms of practicality, but there are certain nuances that will always make the El Primero based Daytonas special to me.  

All the movement considerations (which I agree with) aside: why on earth did they have to make the subdial rings silver? That alone makes the El Primero Daytona better to me. The white dial/ black subdial rings and the black dial/ white subdial rings look so much better. It is definitely one of the reasons I modded my Daytona, the silver in the white dial just washed out. I would not mind adding a Zenith Daytona to the flock. What a geek for details watch collecting makes you

 

[CHRK33]

So I wanted to ask my TWAT-brethren for their help: I want to get my dad a wedding thank you present and obviously considering the frequency with which I visit this thread, it should be a watch. I wanted to keep it in the $3-5K range and unfortunately can't be pre-owned (my dad is idiosyncratic and vintage/pre-owned doesn't work for him). I really wanted to get him the new Tudor Chrono or Black Bay as those would be fun watches that he could enjoy and fit a hole in his collection. Unfortunately, I am in the U.S. and haven't been released here yet; my long time AD is checking if he can work his magic, but I was hoping anyone here might have a suggestion. I don't have any European travel coming up before my August 17th wedding, so that is an option. Do you think there is any chance a Tudor overseas AD would work with me to get me one? Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated.

 

[in stitches]

i <3 nipple dial sub.

 

[Dino944]

All the movement considerations (which I agree with) aside: why on earth did they have to make the subdial rings silver? That alone makes the El Primero Daytona better to me. The white dial/ black subdial rings and the black dial/ white subdial rings look so much better. It is definitely one of the reasons I modded my Daytona, the silver in the white dial just washed out. I would not mind adding a Zenith Daytona to the flock. What a geek for details watch collecting makes you

I don't know why they switched, especially as the silver subdial trim rings were the originally one of the distinguishing features on the original Zenith based movement WG Daytonas. I like the contrast of black/white and white/black on the Daytonas. Having a current model and a vintage Zenith based model, I have the best of both worlds so I won't complain...and if I did, I doubt Rolex would listen.

So I wanted to ask my TWAT-brethren for their help: I want to get my dad a wedding thank you present and obviously considering the frequency with which I visit this thread, it should be a watch. I wanted to keep it in the $3-5K range and unfortunately can't be pre-owned (my dad is idiosyncratic and vintage/pre-owned doesn't work for him). I really wanted to get him the new Tudor Chrono or Black Bay as those would be fun watches that he could enjoy and fit a hole in his collection. Unfortunately, I am in the U.S. and haven't been released here yet; my long time AD is checking if he can work his magic, but I was hoping anyone here might have a suggestion. I don't have any European travel coming up before my August 17th wedding, so that is an option. Do you think there is any chance a Tudor overseas AD would work with me to get me one? Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated.

You may have a problem doing that. Rolex has strict importation laws regarding bringing a Rolex into the US. A person is allowed to bring 1 Rolex product purchased abroad into the USA on their physical person. You are not allowed to ship them into the US, if customs catches you shipping a Rolex into the US, they confiscate the watch. For years James Dowling a noted collector, seller and author of books on Rolex, had a disclaimer stating that he would not do sales of Rolex products to individuals in the US due to customs issues. He would only sell to you, if you or a designated agent would be picking up the watch in person. Some foreign dealer may work with you, but its at your own peril and if your package gets inspected and confiscated, it would be a really bad ending to a well intended idea.