The Official Dieworkwear Appreciation Thread

[Racing Green]

Die, Workwear! Summer Tweed Safari Jacket | The Armoury

The Armoury was born from our passion for classic styling and interest in the unique stories behind well-crafted men’s products.

thearmoury.com

 

[ASNY2VA]

All of the stores going bankrupt/ only buying on sale etc reminds of this article from 2019- https://dieworkwear.com/2019/03/22/support-stores-that-bring-you-value/

This is something Derek has been touching upon more as the retailpocalypse goes on, now with COVID-Thrusters™ engaged, but I don't think it is fair to blame the discount hunters. Anyone in sales knows that the customer is always going to want a discount; the trick for the sales guy is to find the ones who can afford to proceed without one, and focus your energy on them. High overhead, medium / medium-low margin affairs like high-end menswear are a particularly difficult game, and it looks like a lot of these dying businesses simply failed to align their product with people who can pay MSRP without a struggle.

Look at Brooks Bros for example. They made gray and blue worsted and woolen uniforms for white collar workers. A nice commodity, but still a commodity. The uniform changed, but there are still uniforms. However, instead of leveraging their heritage as the go-to for reliable/sturdy/get'er-done American man, Brooks turned into a low-rent version of an Italian department store with a faux-prep thing slapped on, with wares popular only amongst an audience that refuses to go ahead without -30% + BC1818 stacked on top. On the opposite end, I really liked The Hound in San Francisco but it seemed like they never really figured out the transition to smart-casual and was entirely dependent on FiDi workers coming by on their own and replacing an old navy or gray suit with a new one every now and again. When that low-effort revenue stream from flipping a commodity dried up, they were caught off-guard and then the business didn't have enough value left in it to secure a buyer when the owners retired.

It's easy to market to a bunch of broke enthusiasts, and just as easy to blame said enthusiasts when they alone can't fuel you to a profit, but those are both lazy paths. When most businesses fail, people look and go, "Welp, ya done goofed." This is hard for us to say about a small business we loved owned by someone we knew and respected, but at the end of the day, it was his or her job to make a profit and their responsibility when it fails, regardless of how nice and likable they are or how much they loved clothes.

 

[d4nimal]

As an admitted serial discount shopper, I agree that the things I've been willing to pay full price on are usually things I can't get elsewhere, either in design or construction. When Suitsupply was king of the #menswear suiting thingy, no one offered what they did in those styles/canvassing at the price they did it, so their market value was at their full asking price for a while. Brands like Kapital, Brycelands, Mister Freedom, etc. have their own aesthetic/design philosophy, so you can't easily go out and find the same thing elsewhere, as Derek alluded to, unless they're carried by other retailers.

That being said, I also agree that I've shifted somewhat to really enjoy saving the money I would have spent on discount bargains I don't need, and putting those dollars into buying the exact right thing when I can (sometimes that's really hard. The majority of "luxury" goods are a real reach for me at full price, and I'd only think of possibly buying them if they're on heavy discount). I think that mentality is somewhat rare in the modern market, though. Many people I know always want to know if something is on sale before they buy it, regardless of what MSRP is. That's their way of judging if the price was good or not. The modern shopper is used to BR, Gap, J. Crew running perpetual sales. To snap someone out of that frame of mind, you usually have to offer something no one else does.

On a slightly related note, Visvim prices are just nuts now.

 

[Knurt]

The challenge for me is knowledge. I know too little about fabrics, construction, brands quality, to some extent even about my own preferences. So buying at discount is part of a process that is interest driven. I learn from buying and using. In no other way can I access clothes in the quantity I need to learn unless I buy most stuff fairly heavily discounted. I, too, notice that when my preferences solidifies, I am willing to pay more. But I know, too, from experience that buying an expensive garment at full price that «I am certain» that I will want and need, is not so certain after all. Learning, too, is about combining the clothes I have, to find good matches, lacunas, get to know the possibilities of my wardrobe. I read the experts out there suggesting bespoke and what not, but I know that would be foolhardy and I would be too much the object of the tailor’s ideas. I think a lot of advice comes from people who forget they are in the know of both their own preferences and what are the opportunities out there. The rest of us are hopefully on an upward learning curve. That said, the advice from Derek about not being so concerned with brands and the hidden qualities and instead use our esthetic senses I have lately found useful. For sourcing nice and useful and not so expensive garments. But I cannot see the «end of sales» being consumer driven!

 

[gdl203]

We had a similar discussion in the industry thread a few months ago, specifically discussing whether buying products at regular price was charity. Some people were very unhappy about anyone suggesting that their purchase decisions actually had an impact on the survival of stores they patronize.

Discussions about the fashion industry thread

not delusional, but coming from the owner of a store, tone deaf this industry is built on creating value out of vanity, it's fucked from the beginning. even putting that aside, as this is something we all enjoy and appreciate, the retail prices of some brands is plain crazy. you can say that...

www.styleforum.net

As @dieworkwear mentioned, we often derive more value from a retailer than the product itself. But many only realize that when it's gone.

 

[Sartorium]

I think then your value has to come from a different place, like exclusivity or having a unique point of view. Brooks Brothers used to have both.

It was very easy to offer both of these things in a pre-internet era, and it's nearly impossible now.

The speed of information is such that if you are making or selling some combination of things, and are successful, someone is going to try their hand in the same space, and fundamentally consumers have much easier access to the set of all available spaces than they used to.

If you want exclusivity, unless you're vertically integrated or restrict supply, you have to have something of value to offer beyond the physical product. A manufacturing skill, a design skill, brand cache. And these edges are very hard to generate, and harder to preserve.

 

[FLW]

Agreed. Menswear, in the last 10 years or so, has become a wildly crowded space. It's difficult not to become a commodity. I think then your value has to come from a different place, like exclusivity or having a unique point of view. Brooks Brothers used to have both. As a point of comparison, and I don't really know how successful Drake's is at this point, but for an English/ prep/ heritage brand, they definitely have a unique point of view. The price points create some exclusivity as well, thought I suppose we will see how sustainable that is with constant comparison shopping/ discount culture.

All Drake’s stuff I have I got on sale because... I’m not rich and they reliably go on sale. If they never went on sale and always sold at, say, 80% of full retail (or whatever their net average retail price is, between full price and discounts), I’d definitely save up and buy certain items at full price, just like I saved up and bought Aldens at full price. Easier said than done I suppose, but I’d love to see more brands quit the rat race by abandoning seasons, producing less and never going on sale.

Drake's also adds another dimension in that they do lots of trend-leading in their space. They seem to push different ideas and styles (within their relatively confined style bubble, of course) that others then latch onto for free. There are companies, many StyFo darlings, who has make considerable money basically churning out Made in China replications of what Drake's does. The same thing happens with tie fabrics and patterns. Drake's leads the way and others latch on. That kind of trend leadership has to be factored into mark-ups because not all of those ideas are going to land. Some will bust.

If Drake's were to go under, none of their cheaper competitors or discount brands are going to be out there creating casentino wool half-zips or suede patchwork chore coats. Ok, so some of those ideas may deserve to fail, but we are all richer for having a brand that is willing to try in the first place.

 

[Blake Stitched Blues]

We had a similar discussion in the industry thread a few months ago, specifically discussing whether buying products at regular price was charity. Some people were very unhappy about anyone suggesting that their purchase decisions actually had an impact on the survival of stores they patronize.

Discussions about the fashion industry thread

not delusional, but coming from the owner of a store, tone deaf this industry is built on creating value out of vanity, it's fucked from the beginning. even putting that aside, as this is something we all enjoy and appreciate, the retail prices of some brands is plain crazy. you can say that...

www.styleforum.net

As @dieworkwear mentioned, we often derive more value from a retailer than the product itself. But many only realize that when it's gone.

I could be mistaken, but aren't you the guys who sell Vass and Aurland at enormous mark-ups over what they actually cost here in Europe? What value do you feel this is creating for the customer?

 

[whorishconsumer]

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

We had a similar discussion in the industry thread a few months ago, specifically discussing whether buying products at regular price was charity. Some people were very unhappy about anyone suggesting that their purchase decisions actually had an impact on the survival of stores they patronize.

Discussions about the fashion industry thread

not delusional, but coming from the owner of a store, tone deaf this industry is built on creating value out of vanity, it's fucked from the beginning. even putting that aside, as this is something we all enjoy and appreciate, the retail prices of some brands is plain crazy. you can say that...

www.styleforum.net

As @dieworkwear mentioned, we often derive more value from a retailer than the product itself. But many only realize that when it's gone.

I wouldn't call it "charity" but a lot of times, the argument from DWW, PTO, RCS cartoons, etc. in favor of going to small retailers and paying MSRP for the finer things they purvey reads more like a flyer from the local community center telling me to support the arts than it does adcopy for a successful retail enterprise.

A problem from my 10,000ft perspective is that these cool little shops need to figure out how to attract non-enthusiasts who just want nice clothes. They don't have a lot of objections and are happy to listen to your advice and then pay you and be on their way. In other words, they are not very sophisticated on the topic but do have money. Enthusiasts are exactly what you don't need: they are very knowledgeable on the topic and thus don't value your advice, they present tons of hurdles, memorize prices, and perhaps most importantly, they are not particularly numerous or wealthy. They should be a minority of your clientele, people who come in occasionally to splurge on something for fun at MSRP (because you only sell at MSRP of course), but I thinking relying on them to stay afloat is a doomed battle. TLDR I get you guys are passionate clotheshorses but you should advertise more on forums on where VCs and hedge fund managers hang out maybe, vice this impoverished dump.

All that said, I am not in the rags industry, but I am in sales (high end capital equipment; super expensive stuff with crappy margins and an obnoxiously sophisticated customer base....it's a tough gig. For us, industry users are our rich guys and academic users are the enthusiasts; guess which ones are easier to deal with and carry the day for us.). I could be be wrong but probably not 100% wrong, so take what you will from it.

 

[FlyingHorker]

lmfao @ impoverished dump

 

[Joytropics]

I’ve sold a lot of stuff in my life (including a floor sales job in luxury retail early in my career) and @stuffedsuperdud is 100% correct.

I‘ve even started using the phrase “the online forum problem” as shorthand for problematic, over-educated consumers in one of my current ventures.

 

[dieworkwear]

I wouldn't call it "charity" but a lot of times, the argument from DWW, PTO, RCS cartoons, etc. in favor of going to small retailers and paying MSRP for the finer things they purvey reads more like a flyer from the local community center telling me to support the arts than it does adcopy for a successful retail enterprise.

A problem from my 10,000ft perspective is that these cool little shops need to figure out how to attract non-enthusiasts who just want nice clothes. They don't have a lot of objections and are happy to listen to your advice and then pay you and be on their way. In other words, they are not very sophisticated on the topic but do have money. Enthusiasts are exactly what you don't need: they are very knowledgeable on the topic and thus don't value your advice, they present tons of hurdles, memorize prices, and perhaps most importantly, they are not particularly numerous or wealthy. They should be a minority of your clientele, people who come in occasionally to splurge on something for fun at MSRP (because you only sell at MSRP of course), but I thinking relying on them to stay afloat is a doomed battle. TLDR I get you guys are passionate clotheshorses but you should advertise more on forums on where VCs and hedge fund managers hang out maybe, vice this impoverished dump.

All that said, I am not in the rags industry, but I am in sales (high end capital equipment; super expensive stuff with crappy margins and an obnoxiously sophisticated customer base....it's a tough gig. For us, industry users are our rich guys and academic users are the enthusiasts; guess which ones are easier to deal with and carry the day for us.). I could be be wrong but probably not 100% wrong, so take what you will from it.

I think many business owners are already aware of the challenges that come with having an "enthusiast" customer base, just as it sounds like you are with your business. Many want to enter new markets, but don't know how. I don't think it's as easy as "just advertise on those forums." Customer acquisition can be very costly.

"Avoid nitpicky StyleForum types" was once a meme on the bespoke threads, and still continues to be one today to some degree. This was the rationale, true or not, for not revealing one's tailor (the whole MTM, or mystery bespoke tailor thing). Someone would post an outfit and write MBT as a way to say they're not going to disclose who made the garment. Sometimes the justification was that the person didn't want the tailor to be bothered by a certain kind of StyleForum personality. Whether this is true or not, who knows, but that was the jusitifcation. Just saying this stereotype if well known even on this board.

I was surprised to find, however, that some tailors prefer the enthusiast. When talking with Dominique at Edward Sexton, he told me that his business is comprised of two types of customers: the enthusiast and the "white whale." The white whale is a wealthy customer who comes in and orders a bunch of things without much bother. He noted, however, that while white whale orders can be nice, they can also create a strain on the backend. When someone orders a ton of coats, you have to hire more support on the backend (sometimes those people are paid by pieces, as outworkers, but some can be salary). When that guy stops ordering, you're then stuck with a new cost that may be hard to shed.

The enthusiast, meanwhile, plods along with one new coat order per year. It can be much easier to grow a business this way, as you're not dealing with huge fluctuations in orders.

But what you're recommending seems to be the story of so many corporate brands who have supposedly "lost thier way" (according to enthusiasts). This is the story of Allen Edmonds, no? They pursue the capital guy, so they make cushy orange shoes in fashionable styles. The stiff, Goodyear welted stuff in classic shapes get left behind as the company pursues what they see as a better market. Then the enthusiast complains. It's very hard to convert that capital guy into stiff raw denim and drape cut suits unless you convert him into an enthusiast. They want skinny suits, comfy shoes, and untuck-able shirts.

Reading my posts and Ryan's comics, they're aimed at consumers, not industry people. What do you feel can or should be said besides "support the arts?"

 

[dieworkwear]

I could be mistaken, but aren't you the guys who sell Vass and Aurland at enormous mark-ups over what they actually cost here in Europe? What value do you feel this is creating for the customer?

I'll let Greg answer more fully, but I think people underestatime the value a store can bring to a transaction, the importance of being able to get reliable sizing advice, and ease of being able to do domestic returns. Ordering shoes based on your Allen Edmonds Park Avenue size is not an ideal set up.

Furthermore, stores face different cost structures than consumers who import. They get hit with taxes and duties, for example. They have rents and wages to pay.

The same problem exists in other clothing areas, such as raw denim jeans. You can get Japanese raw denim jeans more cheaply if you import them from Japan. Or you can shop at Self Edge. One allows for more reliable sizing and advice. The other can be a pain **********, as many people who have gone through the process can attest.

Curious, did you shop at Aurland before NMWA brought them to your attention?

 

[Joytropics]

Not all businesses are created equal.

Bespoke tailors and multi-brand luxury menswear shops are like small vineyards and art galleries.

It’s a fun passion project, once you’ve sold your first business that manufactures golf cart batteries or does commercial carpet cleaning.

Other guys in similar situations might start an arts foundation or breed dogs...

But none of it makes sense unless you’re already rich.

(And none of it is charity in the true sense of the word, or worth subsidies from the rest of us)

Im glad we live in a world with Khakis of Carmel or Axels of Vail but we have to call a spade a spade.