The Made-to-Measure Thread

[jaywhyy]

Did you read what you wrote? How would you know if someone was adjusting block patterns to customers? I know two bespoke tailors who do that because they like the outcomes. If MTM can have such drastic and precise adjustments, whats the difference to bespoke? What if the outcome is the same? How would you tell bespoke vs MTM?

Lets say someone is broadly a 40 R. If that guy went to a bespoke tailor, do you think his pattern is going to be unrecognizable to an off the rack pattern? Theres only so many ways to create a "house style", so the variables are further reduced because you are attempting to produce a specific outcome.

None of your definitions are accurate in my opinion, including the shoe example. Theres a bespoke maker on this forum who works off of standard lasts and adjusts them to the customer's feet. If you still dont see grey in the equation, you're ignoring it.

To me, the difference between MTM and bespoke is this: The two variables in question are fit and details, and in MTM there are limitations in the adjustments that can be made to those things, if at all because you are working with a pre-determined set of options. In bespoke, the limitations are the creativity and skill of the tailor and cutter.

The description was going by the Savile-Row, classical, for lack of a less pretentious word, definitions of bespoke tailoring and shoemaking.

I would concede there's a grey area in what constitutes a standard last or block pattern, but adjusting a finished last is much different from designing a personalized last from a standardized one...as is the adjustments made to the block pattern in an MTM operation versus bespoke.

But I didn't adequately underscore that the differences described b/w MTM and bespoke were not univariate with respect to the block patterns. Per above, an MTM operation is going to have adjustments relayed to a factory, usually in the form of blinded measurements applied to the block pattern without much thought at the receiving end. With bespoke, adjustments are put into the cloth itself by the cutter, so details are not lost/warped in translation. And of course you have those older cutters relying on rock of eye, where, again, you could argue a block pattern is engrained in their brain.

In the end of bespoke, you should have your own personalized pattern/last. With a repeat MTM order, they input the same (or new) measurements into the block pattern. There is not a personalized pattern, but a set of personalized numbers.

Whether this yields a better fitting garment at the initial fitting is up for the debate, but there's a fundamental difference in the process.

If @Shirtmaven is still active, it would be great if he could chime in on the differences between an MTM versus bespoke option. This discussion, especially the use of block patterns in bespoke, has been debated before.

Edit: I would modify the analogy of MTM to be if someone measured your foot, relayed measurement changes over to the Alden factory, and someone on that end shaved/corked up a Barrie last based off those measurements. A (traditional) bespoke cordwainer will make the last with that big ole lasting knife, starting off with a very rudimentary standard last ala that famous Delos video.

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

So far I have had one negative experience with Enzo Custom (my first foray, so I'll take a bit of the blame on not knowing how to guide, but the fit was really bad), a progression of 3 sport coats made by Aaron at Kent Wang (generally pretty good, fitted in person, and each commission got successively better), moved on to Hemrajani 'semi-bespoke' for a classic navy suit since there were limits to the stylistic options that KW could do with their factory. Might give Juniors a try this year since its in my area (and traveling tailors aren't a thing at the moment) and I've been looking for a more American-Trad style tailor recently.

happy to answer any questions about my experience, really interested to learn about others experience here (especially @bdavro23 being on both sides of the equation).

If you don't mind me asking, what went wrong with Enzo? Most of my nicer tailored garments are from them and while we've tweaked my template slightly with each iteration, even the 1st one was pretty dialed in. It also helps that all their staff are giant #menswear nerds and are a pleasure just to hang out with even, to the point where I usually grab a late appointment whenever I go so that we have extra time to yak about potential future orders. One thing that does make me nervous about what they do is, they offer way more modifications than conventional MTM, but without the basted fittings of bespoke; this leaves a lot of moving parts that can go wrong, which no one will know about until the final garment is ready. As a result, all of my recent orders are basically the same thing, just in different fabrics, but overall, I really like the stuff they've made me and wear them all the time.

 

[Jazzthief]

Scabal has an extensive MTM program that has an incredibly extensive range of fit adjustments. HOWEVER... In any MTM system, but especially one that is very complicated like theirs, you are buying the fitter, not the program...

Thank you!

Yes, the fitter is indeed important as I have gone through a couple made to measure commissions and there simply are some things that not all fitters can nail down properly. I do assume that the Scabal store in Brussels has great fitters as the company is based there...

One more thing, however. What is their price range? It is pretty obvious that it can go quite high as they produce some of the best fabrics, but what would be the starting and 'mid-range' point?

 

[induere_to]

I'll try my hand at sharing a bit of my process with the garments I've been making. Although there has been a lot of demand and push from close friends and clients, I have not yet started my own company, I'm selective on who I make garments for. But for this time during COVID, I wanted to play around as much as I can and see where I stand as [microscopic] the dust settles. We've all seen pictures of me in garments, the majority of which are made to measure. So I'd rather post pictures exhibiting my made to measure process with my friends/clients. I'm going to share reference only for the company that I've coined INDUERE FC (Football Club), as I currently do a lot of freelance work with other companies as well and don't want to confuse anyone.

With my attention to detail and my constant struggle to make sure everything is perfect, the process is extremely crucial for me. I don't use try-ons. Instead, I take each individuals measurements and order trial garments: cheap, polyester garments made to the measurements I took so I can see how I well my measurement algorithm has been adopted (I supply finished measurements as well depending on how the customers body is shaped). I'll use my good friend Pedro Mendes as an example for this process:

The following is the first garment that I made a client after the basted process and several tweaks were made. The fabric is a Fox Brothers Flannel x WM Brown Magazine collaboration that's pretty lightweight. My factory has three different tiers of full canvas construction: 30% handmade, 50% and 90%; the following is my first example of 50%. Given how light the fabric is, the drape is quite exceptional:

After this suit, we felt more confident and wanted to try out a couple odd, fun commissions. Though I have accounts with many mills already, we bought these following fabrics on-line because they were inexpensive. The fitting took place last week and the following pictures are from that day. I've posted more of these to my instagram account. Jacket is supposed to a cross between a workers jacket and an over shirt (still full canvas, but unstructured completely everywhere else). The trousers are a Sexton-inspired Hollywood waistband cavalry twill with floating belt loops:

The way most made to measure works is on-line with drop-down menus of select options. Luckily, the manufacturer that I use accommodates for attention to detail and my extreme nit-pickiness. Every pattern I present them with is drawn from scratch in my notepad (maybe I'll dedicate a post on here to that). What I struggle with most is that I'm entirely self-taught and my methods are quite unorthodox. Bouncing ideas and adjustments with the genius of other tailors in the industry like Marco Cerrato or some of my friends at tailor shops in Spain, and some local guidance here I can adjust my patterns and fit issues as I fin necessary.

I don't know, just trying to shed off my Spier and Mackay fitter reputation.

 

[shoesforever]

I like Dieworkwear's take on mtm vs bespoke:

Can You Spot Bespoke? — Die, Workwear!

I was recently having a discussion with my friend Voxsartoria about whether there’s a practical difference between bespoke and high-end ready-to-wear. He thinks the difference is not only night-and-day but claims he can tell when someone is wearing something that was made for them. I don’t...

dieworkwear.com

 

[classicalthunde]

In any MTM system, but especially one that is very complicated like theirs, you are buying the fitter, not the program...

Agreed 100%... this is the thing I've found to make the biggest difference in all the MTM that I've tried

 

[classicalthunde]

I'll try my hand at sharing a bit of my process with the garments I've been making. Although there has been a lot of demand and push from close friends and clients, I have not yet started my own company, I'm selective on who I make garments for. But for this time during COVID, I wanted to play around as much as I can and see where I stand as [microscopic] the dust settles. We've all seen pictures of me in garments, the majority of which are made to measure. So I'd rather post pictures exhibiting my made to measure process with my friends/clients. I'm going to share reference only for the company that I've coined INDUERE FC (Football Club), as I currently do a lot of freelance work with other companies as well and don't want to confuse anyone.

With my attention to detail and my constant struggle to make sure everything is perfect, the process is extremely crucial for me. I don't use try-ons. Instead, I take each individuals measurements and order trial garments: cheap, polyester garments made to the measurements I took so I can see how I well my measurement algorithm has been adopted (I supply finished measurements as well depending on how the customers body is shaped). I'll use my good friend Pedro Mendes as an example for this process:

View attachment 1476785

View attachment 1476786

The following is the first garment that I made a client after the basted process and several tweaks were made. The fabric is a Fox Brothers Flannel x WM Brown Magazine collaboration that's pretty lightweight. My factory has three different tiers of full canvas construction: 30% handmade, 50% and 90%; the following is my first example of 50%. Given how light the fabric is, the drape is quite exceptional:

View attachment 1476792

View attachment 1476791

View attachment 1476793

After this suit, we felt more confident and wanted to try out a couple odd, fun commissions. Though I have accounts with many mills already, we bought these following fabrics on-line because they were inexpensive. The fitting took place last week and the following pictures are from that day. I've posted more of these to my instagram account. Jacket is supposed to a cross between a workers jacket and an over shirt (still full canvas, but unstructured completely everywhere else). The trousers are a Sexton-inspired Hollywood waistband cavalry twill with floating belt loops:

View attachment 1476795

View attachment 1476796

View attachment 1476797

View attachment 1476798

View attachment 1476799

View attachment 1476800

The way most made to measure works is on-line with drop-down menus of select options. Luckily, the manufacturer that I use accommodates for attention to detail and my extreme nit-pickiness. Every pattern I present them with is drawn from scratch in my notepad (maybe I'll dedicate a post on here to that). What I struggle with most is that I'm entirely self-taught and my methods are quite unorthodox. Bouncing ideas and adjustments with the genius of other tailors in the industry like Marco Cerrato or some of my friends at tailor shops in Spain, and some local guidance here I can adjust my patterns and fit issues as I fin necessary.

I don't know, just trying to shed off my Spier and Mackay fitter reputation.

love this stuff! The purple jacket reminds me of a cross between a Barbour jacket and a navy peacoat…this, I see an argument for a grey area between MTM and bespoke. you're clearly entering measurements, but it seems you're pretty much able to do whatever you want (pocket shape, game pocket, etc)

I would definitely like to hear more about the process and see some of your sketches. I would also love to hear from makers about selecting a factory and the creation of 'house-style' or even possibly see some of the optons forms that are submitted to the factory

 

[classicalthunde]

If you don't mind me asking, what went wrong with Enzo? Most of my nicer tailored garments are from them and while we've tweaked my template slightly with each iteration, even the 1st one was pretty dialed in. It also helps that all their staff are giant #menswear nerds and are a pleasure just to hang out with even, to the point where I usually grab a late appointment whenever I go so that we have extra time to yak about potential future orders. One thing that does make me nervous about what they do is, they offer way more modifications than conventional MTM, but without the basted fittings of bespoke; this leaves a lot of moving parts that can go wrong, which no one will know about until the final garment is ready. As a result, all of my recent orders are basically the same thing, just in different fabrics, but overall, I really like the stuff they've made me and wear them all the time.

I will preface this with saying a) it was my first MTM experience and a time when i was just starting learn about menswear, and b) this was almost 5 years ago and i believe that the company has re-booted a bit and done an overhaul of things since then and c) this is just sample of one I don't know how broadly some of these things (particularly the fit or experience issues) would translate to other customers

some of my issues were:

- tricky pricing scheme: I wanted a mid-grey suit and there were only navys, blacks, and charcoals at the base price from unidentified mills. I had to go up like 4 or 5 levels just to get a basic, generic mid grey, things like VBC and H&S were almost 2x the price of their entry level stuff. For a frame a reference the upcharge for VBC at KW is only $100, and base prices at Hemrajani MTM include VBC. Also, their default 'half canvas' isn't very accurate as the canvasing doesnt go through/connect to the lapel (I could be getting this part wrong on the technical side), it was a $75 upcharge to have the half canvasing go through/connect to the lapel, and a $200 something upcharge for full canvasing...at this point with all the upcharges your already squarely in the KW or Hemrajani MTM price range

- fit issues: I have a narrow/forward shoulders, a barreled torso, and an 8 inch drop...my suit was just a big square block with no shape at all...I looked like i was wearing the David Byrne suit in a normal-ish size. My OTR entry-level SuitSupply fit better and had a much better silhouette, and was $300 cheaper after alterations. The suit also had a pretty obvious lapel pop when buttoned, I feel like that's a pretty unforgivable sin in custom tailoring, especially since they just could not get rid of after two rounds of 'final adjustments' (I think it was due the button placement, but cant double check since the suit is long gone)

- experience: a minor gripe, but the whole thing was essentially measurements, try this on, '"how does it feel...good? okay." I like a bit of hand holding and stylistic guidance when seeing a tailor, I cant recall being asked even basic stuff like "is this a formal suit or a relaxed one?" or "how much shoulder padding do you like?" or "wider lapels go better with a bigger chest" etc.

Overall, I think I spent around $700-800 bucks and wore the suit a grand total of twice before donating

 

[bdavro23]

I'll try my hand at sharing a bit of my process with the garments I've been making. Although there has been a lot of demand and push from close friends and clients, I have not yet started my own company, I'm selective on who I make garments for. But for this time during COVID, I wanted to play around as much as I can and see where I stand as [microscopic] the dust settles. We've all seen pictures of me in garments, the majority of which are made to measure. So I'd rather post pictures exhibiting my made to measure process with my friends/clients. I'm going to share reference only for the company that I've coined INDUERE FC (Football Club), as I currently do a lot of freelance work with other companies as well and don't want to confuse anyone.

With my attention to detail and my constant struggle to make sure everything is perfect, the process is extremely crucial for me. I don't use try-ons. Instead, I take each individuals measurements and order trial garments: cheap, polyester garments made to the measurements I took so I can see how I well my measurement algorithm has been adopted (I supply finished measurements as well depending on how the customers body is shaped). I'll use my good friend Pedro Mendes as an example for this process:

View attachment 1476785

View attachment 1476786

The following is the first garment that I made a client after the basted process and several tweaks were made. The fabric is a Fox Brothers Flannel x WM Brown Magazine collaboration that's pretty lightweight. My factory has three different tiers of full canvas construction: 30% handmade, 50% and 90%; the following is my first example of 50%. Given how light the fabric is, the drape is quite exceptional:

View attachment 1476792

View attachment 1476791

View attachment 1476793

After this suit, we felt more confident and wanted to try out a couple odd, fun commissions. Though I have accounts with many mills already, we bought these following fabrics on-line because they were inexpensive. The fitting took place last week and the following pictures are from that day. I've posted more of these to my instagram account. Jacket is supposed to a cross between a workers jacket and an over shirt (still full canvas, but unstructured completely everywhere else). The trousers are a Sexton-inspired Hollywood waistband cavalry twill with floating belt loops:

View attachment 1476795

View attachment 1476796

View attachment 1476797

View attachment 1476798

View attachment 1476799

View attachment 1476800

The way most made to measure works is on-line with drop-down menus of select options. Luckily, the manufacturer that I use accommodates for attention to detail and my extreme nit-pickiness. Every pattern I present them with is drawn from scratch in my notepad (maybe I'll dedicate a post on here to that). What I struggle with most is that I'm entirely self-taught and my methods are quite unorthodox. Bouncing ideas and adjustments with the genius of other tailors in the industry like Marco Cerrato or some of my friends at tailor shops in Spain, and some local guidance here I can adjust my patterns and fit issues as I fin necessary.

I don't know, just trying to shed off my Spier and Mackay fitter reputation.

I have some questions for you since you made some interesting statements. First, whats a measurement algorithm? Second, doing basted fittings could be a really helpful tool in dialing in fit, but dont you think using try-ons would help create a better outcome, and also potentially a cheaper option? The Fox Flannel suit appears to have a somewhat substantial collar gap. Wouldnt that have been diagnosed with a try-on? Third, you appear to say you are drawing patterns for your customers, which was a bit of a surprise. If thats true its remarkable and quite impressive. I guess that would explain not using try-ons since there wouldnt be a standard pattern to begin with. And congratulations on finding a factory that is willing to make for you to those patterns, I'm sure that wasnt easy. I wouldnt call that MTM at all, since you apparently arent working from stock patterns and making adjustments to them, but rather acting as a "cutter" without cutting. A pattern making "tailor" I suppose...

On that subject, I think a lot of MTM doesnt work because the fitters dont/ wont understand that it really doesnt matter what they think or how they feel things should work. There is a pattern that drives everything and the adjustments that can be made are dictated by the manufacturer. They key to getting things right is understanding how to work within that system, regardless of how you feel things should work.

One final question: If there is so much interest, start your own company already! Why wait? It sounds like you have all the ingredients, unless the model you use and the factory are contracted to other companies. GO GO GO!

 

[mozart]

Thanks for that shoesforever.

 

[Crispyj]

I asked Frank Shattuck regarding his block patterns. Here's his response (he got pretty worked up haha):

I do have block patterns that I often use. They are excellent block patterns made by one of Ralph Lauren’s first designers, Tony Farelli. The armholes in The Farelli pattern are actually higher than the Mitchell System. The Mitchell System and the farelli patterns have different lines ( silhouette ). I decide which one to use depending on the customer. If a block pattern is good it’s good. You can see in posts of mine where I often mention my Farelli patterns. In fact Toninno Christoforo loved the balance of my Farelli patterns and he often used them. And all of my pants are cut using the Farelli pants pattern. And many of my vests are Farelli.

Mitchell System (My coat)



Farelli Block Pattern, Frank says you can see the Ralph Lauren in it.

 

[induere_to]

I have some questions for you since you made some interesting statements. First, whats a measurement algorithm? Second, doing basted fittings could be a really helpful tool in dialing in fit, but dont you think using try-ons would help create a better outcome, and also potentially a cheaper option? The Fox Flannel suit appears to have a somewhat substantial collar gap. Wouldnt that have been diagnosed with a try-on? Third, you appear to say you are drawing patterns for your customers, which was a bit of a surprise. If thats true its remarkable and quite impressive. I guess that would explain not using try-ons since there wouldnt be a standard pattern to begin with. And congratulations on finding a factory that is willing to make for you to those patterns, I'm sure that wasnt easy. I wouldnt call that MTM at all, since you apparently arent working from stock patterns and making adjustments to them, but rather acting as a "cutter" without cutting. A pattern making "tailor" I suppose...

On that subject, I think a lot of MTM doesnt work because the fitters dont/ wont understand that it really doesnt matter what they think or how they feel things should work. There is a pattern that drives everything and the adjustments that can be made are dictated by the manufacturer. They key to getting things right is understanding how to work within that system, regardless of how you feel things should work.

One final question: If there is so much interest, start your own company already! Why wait? It sounds like you have all the ingredients, unless the model you use and the factory are contracted to other companies. GO GO GO!

My measurement algorithm varies by body. It's the difference between the space between body measurements and finished measurements. Tall, lengthy guys need more space in their garments than shorter, stocky guys. I have one client that has a bit of a stomach and I add 7.5 cm at the waist versus the 10 cm I add to slimmer guys. It's especially more important in trousers. I add a lot more fabric for taller guys than I do for shorter guys because the leg has more motion and a longer drape than shorter legs. These basted garments help me dictate how accurate or inaccurate these algorithm pattern guesses are.

The reason I use trial garments is because they're a lot less expensive than try-ons. I had a conversation with an Italian manufacturer and a Portuguese manufacturer that required around $20,000 worth of start-up materials. Why should I spend that when everyone I measure already has try-on garments in their wardrobe. The most important measurements are shoulder width, sleeve length and body length. If someone has a garment they currently already like, it's easy enough to mimic those measurements and once the trial garment comes I can see the highlighted posture call-outs that I may have missed in the first fitting. I pay for the trial garments because I'm not satisfied making any money on something I am not confident is good enough to have my name on it. So once the trial garment comes in and both I and the customer can see how the final garment will result, I'll charge them the one-time-only trial garment cost. Finding space in my tiny apartment closet for try-ons just feels like an anxiety attack waiting to happen.

The Fox Flannel suit does not have a collar gap. Pictures are pictures, I'd rather take pictures of my customers before, in and after motion rather than cheating with the annoying 'robo-pose' most people on here use to show off their threads. This is actually why a lot of other tailors like Dylanandson don't post many pictures of garments on clients on their instagram page, people are quicker to critique. What you don't see in the picture is that the collar does actually hug the neck pretty well; as opposed to the issues I used to find working for my last company, collar gap was one of the big posture call-outs I wanted to prevent with this current factory I use. Obviously, I'd rather people recognize the process and headaches it took to perfect the trouser patterns to where they are now or the front/back balance of the jacket. I'm a perfectionist and I understand I'm only harming my own mental health. But when you have mental health deterioration to the same levels that I do... what is there to lose?

The goal is to eventually look into starting a 'bespoke' shop once either I get the training necessary to do it on my own, or to partner with someone who's skill level is immaculate and I can run a business as freely as I'd like. But, whether I'm drawing my own patterns for outside assembly or if I'm doing everything myself, I'll probably never actually describe what I do as bespoke. In fact, I thought about putting the words "Not Bespoke" on my label beneath my logo. Maybe one day.

You wanted to know why I don't start a company if there is so much demand, but back to touching on the topic of mental health: me with my self doubt and lack of self esteem and my depressive-anxieties regarding social adaptability and expectations will probably not be an obstacle I'm able to overcome anytime in the near future. For now, it's COVID, and I'm trying to have fun. Who knows where this will go in the future. I'm trying to open my eyes to the compliments and positive feedback people try giving me but a part of me is still learning how not to block these things out. In my head, there's still so much more growing for me to do that I would rather be focusing on.

 

[bdavro23]

My measurement algorithm varies by body. It's the difference between the space between body measurements and finished measurements. Tall, lengthy guys need more space in their garments than shorter, stocky guys. I have one client that has a bit of a stomach and I add 7.5 cm at the waist versus the 10 cm I add to slimmer guys. It's especially more important in trousers. I add a lot more fabric for taller guys than I do for shorter guys because the leg has more motion and a longer drape than shorter legs. These basted garments help me dictate how accurate or inaccurate these algorithm pattern guesses are.

The reason I use trial garments is because they're a lot less expensive than try-ons. I had a conversation with an Italian manufacturer and a Portuguese manufacturer that required around $20,000 worth of start-up materials. Why should I spend that when everyone I measure already has try-on garments in their wardrobe. The most important measurements are shoulder width, sleeve length and body length. If someone has a garment they currently already like, it's easy enough to mimic those measurements and once the trial garment comes I can see the highlighted posture call-outs that I may have missed in the first fitting. I pay for the trial garments because I'm not satisfied making any money on something I am not confident is good enough to have my name on it. So once the trial garment comes in and both I and the customer can see how the final garment will result, I'll charge them the one-time-only trial garment cost. Finding space in my tiny apartment closet for try-ons just feels like an anxiety attack waiting to happen.

The Fox Flannel suit does not have a collar gap. Pictures are pictures, I'd rather take pictures of my customers before, in and after motion rather than cheating with the annoying 'robo-pose' most people on here use to show off their threads. This is actually why a lot of other tailors like Dylanandson don't post many pictures of garments on clients on their instagram page, people are quicker to critique. What you don't see in the picture is that the collar does actually hug the neck pretty well; as opposed to the issues I used to find working for my last company, collar gap was one of the big posture call-outs I wanted to prevent with this current factory I use. Obviously, I'd rather people recognize the process and headaches it took to perfect the trouser patterns to where they are now or the front/back balance of the jacket. I'm a perfectionist and I understand I'm only harming my own mental health. But when you have mental health deterioration to the same levels that I do... what is there to lose?

The goal is to eventually look into starting a 'bespoke' shop once either I get the training necessary to do it on my own, or to partner with someone who's skill level is immaculate and I can run a business as freely as I'd like. But, whether I'm drawing my own patterns for outside assembly or if I'm doing everything myself, I'll probably never actually describe what I do as bespoke. In fact, I thought about putting the words "Not Bespoke" on my label beneath my logo. Maybe one day.

You wanted to know why I don't start a company if there is so much demand, but back to touching on the topic of mental health: me with my self doubt and lack of self esteem and my depressive-anxieties regarding social adaptability and expectations will probably not be an obstacle I'm able to overcome anytime in the near future. For now, it's COVID, and I'm trying to have fun. Who knows where this will go in the future. I'm trying to open my eyes to the compliments and positive feedback people try giving me but a part of me is still learning how not to block these things out. I've recently had conversations with menswear buyers for stores in Europe and some friends that run menswear magazines including conversations with people like Sonya Glyn who praise me on my attention to detail and my eye for proportion; whatever, I'm a realist, if someone points something out to me, I can see it. But in my head there's still so much more growing for me to do that I would rather be focusing on. I think that's taking things way too far and way too fast. I'm just here to learn as much as I can and make people look as good as I can and make as many friends as I can in the meantime. I guess those four years of struggling with homelessness did quite the number on my brain.

Hey man, best of luck with your mental health issues, I hope you are getting whatever help you need. I'm glad to see you feel comfortable talking about it.

My understanding of this thread was it was a place for people to post their MTM garments and talk about the experiences they've had as customers and perhaps the iterative process to get to where they are now, so I dont want to belabor this back and forth with you too much. However, a final reply before moving on:

So, your algorithm is really just "ease". Chest measurement plus 4", waist plus 3" etc. I think thats pretty standard, and once again a benefit of try-on so you can actually see where you are starting from. On that subject, I cant understand why a try-on would cost more than your trial garments, and you can reuse them over and over. 38R-50R is only 7 suits, so I cant see how that would get remotely close to $20k. The closet space is a real concern, but rolling racks, etc.

As for the shoulder width, sleeve length and body length being the most important measures, I couldnt disagree more strongly. The most important measurements are shoulder slope and posture, because you broadly cant correct for those once a garment is made. They also dictate most of the other things about how the item fits, including the location of the armhole. Static, 2D measurements are important, but they are incomplete. Two people with the exact same measures could have wildly different shapes, posture, arm position/ sleeve pitch, pelvic tilt, etc. Some of those things you can eyeball, but thats a guess. Some of those things you wont know until theres a try-on, basted garment or finished garment on the customer. Context is incredibly important.

I also wanted to circle back about your patterns, because I'm fascinated. Are you actually producing the patterns that you send to the factory to be used for fabrication? Are you using software or freehand drawing them? I cant imagine how complicated and difficult that would be and how much effort must have gone into teaching yourself how to do that. Really impressive and I'd be interested in hearing about how you learned.

FInally, the grey pants look nice, good job.

 

[classicalthunde]

I asked Frank Shattuck regarding his block patterns. Here's his response (he got pretty worked up haha):

I do have block patterns that I often use. They are excellent block patterns made by one of Ralph Lauren’s first designers, Tony Farelli. The armholes in The Farelli pattern are actually higher than the Mitchell System. The Mitchell System and the farelli patterns have different lines ( silhouette ). I decide which one to use depending on the customer. If a block pattern is good it’s good. You can see in posts of mine where I often mention my Farelli patterns. In fact Toninno Christoforo loved the balance of my Farelli patterns and he often used them. And all of my pants are cut using the Farelli pants pattern. And many of my vests are Farelli.

Mitchell System (My coat)
View attachment 1476878


Farelli Block Pattern, Frank says you can see the Ralph Lauren in it.
View attachment 1476879

I know this isnt the right thread, but goddamn that Frank x LL herringbone tweed jacket is awesome! hes out of my price range for the foreseeable future, but man would I love a jacket like that!

 

[classicalthunde]

My measurement algorithm varies by body. It's the difference between the space between body measurements and finished measurements. Tall, lengthy guys need more space in their garments than shorter, stocky guys. I have one client that has a bit of a stomach and I add 7.5 cm at the waist versus the 10 cm I add to slimmer guys. It's especially more important in trousers. I add a lot more fabric for taller guys than I do for shorter guys because the leg has more motion and a longer drape than shorter legs. These basted garments help me dictate how accurate or inaccurate these algorithm pattern guesses are.

The reason I use trial garments is because they're a lot less expensive than try-ons. I had a conversation with an Italian manufacturer and a Portuguese manufacturer that required around $20,000 worth of start-up materials. Why should I spend that when everyone I measure already has try-on garments in their wardrobe. The most important measurements are shoulder width, sleeve length and body length. If someone has a garment they currently already like, it's easy enough to mimic those measurements and once the trial garment comes I can see the highlighted posture call-outs that I may have missed in the first fitting. I pay for the trial garments because I'm not satisfied making any money on something I am not confident is good enough to have my name on it. So once the trial garment comes in and both I and the customer can see how the final garment will result, I'll charge them the one-time-only trial garment cost. Finding space in my tiny apartment closet for try-ons just feels like an anxiety attack waiting to happen.

The Fox Flannel suit does not have a collar gap. Pictures are pictures, I'd rather take pictures of my customers before, in and after motion rather than cheating with the annoying 'robo-pose' most people on here use to show off their threads. This is actually why a lot of other tailors like Dylanandson don't post many pictures of garments on clients on their instagram page, people are quicker to critique. What you don't see in the picture is that the collar does actually hug the neck pretty well; as opposed to the issues I used to find working for my last company, collar gap was one of the big posture call-outs I wanted to prevent with this current factory I use. Obviously, I'd rather people recognize the process and headaches it took to perfect the trouser patterns to where they are now or the front/back balance of the jacket. I'm a perfectionist and I understand I'm only harming my own mental health. But when you have mental health deterioration to the same levels that I do... what is there to lose?

The goal is to eventually look into starting a 'bespoke' shop once either I get the training necessary to do it on my own, or to partner with someone who's skill level is immaculate and I can run a business as freely as I'd like. But, whether I'm drawing my own patterns for outside assembly or if I'm doing everything myself, I'll probably never actually describe what I do as bespoke. In fact, I thought about putting the words "Not Bespoke" on my label beneath my logo. Maybe one day.

You wanted to know why I don't start a company if there is so much demand, but back to touching on the topic of mental health: me with my self doubt and lack of self esteem and my depressive-anxieties regarding social adaptability and expectations will probably not be an obstacle I'm able to overcome anytime in the near future. For now, it's COVID, and I'm trying to have fun. Who knows where this will go in the future. I'm trying to open my eyes to the compliments and positive feedback people try giving me but a part of me is still learning how not to block these things out. In my head, there's still so much more growing for me to do that I would rather be focusing on.

I love the graph paper images that you've been sharing on IG, i think thats a really interesting way to step outside the realm of traditional MTM

When all this COVID **** dies down, I hope you think about a trunk show to NYC every now and then, I would love to try your stuff out!