If Urban Outfitters, BR, AA,... can make stuff in the US why can't others?

[mlyngard]

I'm not going to debate Mauro's long explaination using examples we all probably already understand. If we frequent this site or have worked in retail, we should have a minimum understanding of this debate on national economic and business feasibility aspects.

But the question still remains; is there truly a reason, in this global economy, why the shift of outsourced unskilled labor to other countries is a bad thing? Other than a small percentage of smaller businesses making quality goods, the US long ago lost the lead in quality industrial production. In the '70's.

This country is evolving into something entirely different now. Employment is elsewhere. Is 'Made in America' best left to the Stetsons and Red Wings?

 

[Listi]

I agree with Mauro that buying made in the US is good for the US and that everyone who can afford to do so should. I sort of have complicated thoughts on the issue which are difficult to voice as well. But I believe that if wages were fair in the US (as in, ununionized, assembly line workers do not deserve $70-80,000 a year) that manufacturing would be possible, businessmen could still get rich, and they'd actually make just as much money at a lower profit margin but with higher sales because more people would buy their stuff.

I'm not doing economics in school or anything and I haven't been keeping up with the current business world (too busy with learning science) but these are my basic views and I think that anyone who has the money to buy made in the US, when the option is there, should try to. It'll help in the long run.

 

[Mauro]

Big companies that are public post their P&l's. anything besides that is their business. Futhermore with all the dishonesty and lieing compnaies and people do the truth is always buried.

People make and sell things for money. Bottom line. It sucks but it's true.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted by Nil

How is this not our business? I won't begrudge small designers (e.g. you and other forum regulars) keeping their cost private, but debating the pricing vs. cost of larger brands is very relevant to our interests.

The problem I see is everyone wants to say brand xyz moved production to the third world, because of abc, but without knowing the business itself you really cannot say that with any truth. Unless your physically going through the financial documents and sales figures, and sitting in the meetings for a company, you just don't know what their decisions are based off of. Even press releases often don't tell the full truth.

 

[thomasec]

Originally Posted by Listi

I agree with Mauro that buying made in the US is good for the US and that everyone who can afford to do so should. I sort of have complicated thoughts on the issue which are difficult to voice as well. But I believe that if wages were fair in the US (as in, ununionized, assembly line workers do not deserve $70-80,000 a year) that manufacturing would be possible, businessmen could still get rich, and they'd actually make just as much money at a lower profit margin but with higher sales because more people would buy their stuff. I'm not doing economics in school or anything and I haven't been keeping up with the current business world (too busy with learning science) but these are my basic views and I think that anyone who has the money to buy made in the US, when the option is there, should try to. It'll help in the long run.
Lucky for you, I was an economics major. "Buy American" is a bad thing for the US, both in the short term and long run. For one, it drives up the cost of foreign goods since global demand drops, putting FAR more people out of jobs overseas who would potentially buy American made goods and services (where we are truly more productive). Additionally, it also allows domestic producers to artificially inflate their prices, meaning potentially more profits domestically, but a massive drop in global sales. Think about it.....if Rag & Bone started making ALL of their goods in the States, there's a chance that their profits would remain steady in the US, even if their costs increased dramatically.....but do you think people in Spain or Russia would pay 50% more for the same quality of workmanship and materials simply because it's made in the USA? **** NO. "Buy American"....bad for America, bad for the world. Edit: Just realized Listi is in Canada....not trying to trick us, are you?

 

[whodini]

Originally Posted by thomasec

Think about it.....if Rag & Bone started making ALL of their goods in the States, there's a chance that their profits would remain steady in the US, even if their costs increased dramatically.....but do you think people in Spain or Russia would pay 50% more for the same quality of workmanship and materials simply because it's made in the USA?

**** NO.

People in Japan pay more for US-made goods all the time even with significant markups due to taxes, and they do so specifically because they're made in the US.

I just don't think you can make blanket statements like that when there are clear exceptions to the rule.

 

[mlyngard]

Originally Posted by whodini

People in Japan pay more for US-made goods all the time even with significant markups due to taxes, and they do so specifically because they're made in the US.

I just don't think you can make blanket statements like that when there are clear exceptions to the rule.

I suppose this is really where we should distinguish between luxury goods, necessity items, and raw materials.

Examples can be posited for any of those catagories to argue the same points. But I think vastly different dynamics apply behind the scenes.

Japan is a perfect example: they have to import almost all their raw materials at high cost, yet their importation of foreign luxury goods is also high even though they have plenty available MIJ.

 

[JMK]

Despite widespread outsourcing to overseas manufacturers, in 2008 there were only 155,000 jobs in cut and sew apparel manufacturing in the United States -- the industry with the fewest jobs on this list. The Bureau of Labor Statistics anticipates that the industry will lose 89,000 jobs -- 57% -- by 2018.

 

[Mauro]

^^ compare that to the 50's , 60's , 70's, 80's, and the 90's.

For the economy majors -
was that the case back in the day when 95% of our clothing was made in the U.S.
There was a time when the dollar was something. I think building something here and running with it could only help the states even if it ment us buying our own stuff or am I way off???

The English, canadians, and the Japanese all buy our products why wouldn't other country's.
We don't really need food from any other country. Oil , for now. Anything else to me is a luxury.

The states can use canada and finnland as role models for the logging industry and other countries that have excpetional models for sustaining other resources.

I am no expert on these things. I know my industry because I am in it and trying to give my customers the best price and stillstaying in business.
So please help me understand until then I am chalking up everything to greed and lazyness.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by indesertum

It means Made in China where generally wages are lower (which is OK because purchasing power is higher in less developed countries. eg you can eat 3 meals a day in Vietnam for less than $3. Rent is like $250 a month in Hanoi, which is the capital city of Vietnam, etc.), and thus manufacturing costs are lower. Yes, there are competent sew houses in China (eg some RLPL stuff I believe is made in china by england trained chinese tailors and in general it's pretty top notch) and they can turn out a good product.

No, no, no.

This is the second time this week that I have read a post by someone on this forum stating that RLPL stuff is made anywhere other than Italy or England. For the record: RLPL stuff is made only in Italy or England. Thus, your example is null.

Originally Posted by airportlobby

Quality/durability is just about the last reason I prefer to buy made in America.

Well, both AE and Alden manufacture really well made shoes in the US at prices which are competitive with Italian made shoes, both in terms of quality and price, to say nothing of Chinese-made shoes. Even at full retail price, I can't recall another shoe manufacturer at the same price point that can compete with AE in terms of quality, regardless of country of manufacture.

 

[jet]

uhh rlpl has lots of stuff made in china now homie

 

[Razele]

Manufacturing = Growth

Mauro is pretty much spot on for most if not all points.

Watch for U.S Dollar devaluation + PRC RMB revaluation, prices for made in china goods are going to go up, and they are seeking a bigger piece of the luxury pie.

Cheap manufacture will move elsewere, as it always has. However if the U.S wants to return to growth you will need more manufacturing.

 

[onion]

^^^ Agreed. China's manufacturing is on the up and up. The price of labor there is definitely rising. It won't be too long before we're discussing why so many awful items are made in Vietnam or the like, instead of China. Btw the things discussed in this thread is what much of the book Deluxe How Luxury Lost It's Luster by Dana Thomas is based on. It's really a fantastic read, and sheds a lot of light on the whole made in Italy/US/UK vs China and other countries debate. I HIGHLY recommend everyone pick it up, even if you only read the first couple of chapters on overseas manufacturing. I think almost everyone here could learn good bit from it.

 

[whodini]

Originally Posted by onion

^^^ Agreed. China's manufacturing is on the up and up. The price of labor there is definitely rising. It won't be too long before we're discussing why so many awful items are made in Vietnam or the like, instead of China.

It already is. Rye has mentioned how certain companies will go to China and try to lowball the factories, the factories won't **** its own throat on such low margins so they turn down the work. Where does the lowball work go? Take your pick of third-world countries where they'll openly accept the work at any cost. It has almost (or already has) come to the point where China is no longer the dirty little bargain.

 

[onion]

Here are a couple of random quotes from Deluxe How Luxury Lost It's Luster from a few pages I folded down in my copy, that sort of show how things vary drastically in China, and how blanket statements are no longer correct.

A Chinese Factory can be a bit like a university campus. The place is populated with thousands of unmarried young people ages sixteen to about twenty-six. They often live in dorms on the property, eat off metal trays at long tables in a cafeteria, and ride bikes or take the bus to town during their time off to hit a karaoke bar. One factory I visited has a game room with pool tables, Ping-Pong, and Foosball; a basketball court; a convenience store; and a computer room. A gym under construction. There's a doctor on site and day care. And the place was absolutely spotless. "If it's not a healthy environment, then the workers aren't healthy and our goals reflect it," the manufacturer told me, adding, "We are one of the few exceptions." Factories that produce luxury goods have a couple of thousand workers, small by comparison to mass brands. "A Nike factory will have twenty to thirty thousand people," the manufacturer told me. "It's a town."
Most of the workers are young women, some between the age of twenty-two and twenty-six. The legal working age in China is sixteen--though, the manufacturer noted "Only about 15 percent of the workers in Dongguan are locals. The rest come from the poor cities in the north and from the countryside and requires a permit from their hometowns to go elsewhere to work. They earn about $120 a month and send it all home. "They come to work and get out," he said, "They work enough to support a family, build a house. In five to six years, they earn fifty to sixty thousand RMB, which is about $6,000 - $7,000. The workers have no friends. No relatives nearby. They don't mind doing overtime. They don't care if they are working long hours or don't have fun. They just work. It's a big cultural difference."

The craftsmanship can be complicated. I watched Chinese girls make intricately braided leather handles and tassels. "We learned the technique from Italy," the manufacturer told me. The amount of glue used to construct the bag dictates the level of luxury--and the retail price. Low-end luxury brands use a lot of glue. Higher-end brands use little. One young and highly respected European brand that produces only very fine leather goods doesn't use glue at all--but it does quietly produce most of its goods in China. When you walk into its production room, you only smell leather. "I hate glue," the manufacturer told me. "But that's how the brands can afford it." And how they make their profits.