Tell Me About Law School

Originally Posted by alterion

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Our training stucture is slightly different to the US as we then take a year's professional training course and 2 more years of professional training at a law firm for solicitors (barristers are just crazy people).

What's required for barristers?

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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What's required for barristers?
wikipedia's article on barristers is actually pretty good, but the key point is that its extremely extremely competitive, even compared to top solicitors jobs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrist...land_and_Wales

Originally Posted by topbroker

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I wish I could agree with this. Most of them are not out-and-out criminals, of course. But big firm lawyers routinely rip off their business clients through the self-serving and highly suspect practice of hourly billing. This has been openly discussed and acknowledged in every law firm environment I have ever found myself in. In the gleeful words of one partner I knew, "The meter is always running!" I cannot think of another profession where the measurement of the service that is purportedly delivered is so alarmingly skewed by the interests of the service provider. You may dispute this if you like, but the issue is fundamental and has been widely aired in many public forums.

You haven't been working your beauty contests hard enough. Every big firm will do transactional work for flat fees. Routine litigation work can be sent to boutiques that use flat fee billing, and for larger work even Biglaw firms will take on litigation matters for discounted hourly rates with a back end premium or contingency.

wait, so are you an ambulance chaser?

Originally Posted by retronotmetro

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You haven't been working your beauty contests hard enough. Every big firm will do transactional work for flat fees. Routine litigation work can be sent to boutiques that use flat fee billing, and for larger work even Biglaw firms will take on litigation matters for discounted hourly rates with a back end premium or contingency.

I understand that all of these can be options, but the bulk of big firm billing is still hourly. And the growth of flat fee billing has come about in part because of justified squawking about hourly billing.

In my legal lives, I have seen abuses of many kinds. At firms where the smallest billing period is a quarter-hour, two-minute phone calls are routinely billed at the full quarter-hour. I have seen five hours of work regularly stretched out to twenty hours of billing. I have seen paralegals and junior associates tacitly encouraged to take as much time as they possibly can over projects (heck, I've been one of those paralegals). I have seen partners who bill at $500.00/hour billing a total of 20 or 21 hours per day for days on end, thinking that if this they split these hours between clients, no one will call them them on the fact that they are biological organisms and that what they are claiming is impossible. I know most of the tricks, believe me, and because of this, when I was legal affairs manager for a sizable manufacturer, in charge of vetting the bills of 25 outside counsel firms worldwide, I was able to reduce our yearly outside legal billings from $1.5 million per year to under $250,000.00 per year. I aggressively fired firms that engaged in abuse and closely monitored those that were more scrupulous. It worked, but only because I did know the tricks.

Originally Posted by topbroker

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I understand that all of these can be options, but the bulk of big firm billing is still hourly. And the growth of flat fee billing has come about in part because of justified squawking about hourly billing.

In my legal lives, I have seen abuses of many kinds. At firms where the smallest billing period is a quarter-hour, two-minute phone calls are routinely billed at the full quarter-hour. I have seen five hours of work regularly stretched out to twenty hours of billing. I have seen paralegals and junior associates tacitly encouraged to take as much time as they possibly can over projects (heck, I've been one of those paralegals). I have seen partners who bill at $500.00/hour billing a total of 20 or 21 hours per day for days on end, thinking that if this they split these hours between clients, no one will call them them on the fact that they are biological organisms and that what they are claiming is impossible. I know most of the tricks, believe me, and because of this, when I was legal affairs manager for a sizable manufacturer, in charge of vetting the bills of 25 outside counsel firms worldwide, I was able to reduce our yearly outside legal billings from $1.5 million per year to under $250,000.00 per year. I aggressively fired firms that engaged in abuse and closely monitored those that were more scrupulous. It worked, but only because I did know the tricks.
This criticism is equally applicable to plumbers, interior designers, and any profession that bills on an hourly basis. Dishonest billing is an indictment of individual lawyers, not of the legal profession as a whole.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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This criticism is equally applicable to plumbers, interior designers, and any profession that bills on an hourly basis. Dishonest billing is an indictment of individual lawyers, not of the legal profession as a whole.

When it is widespread -- and I believe it is very widespread -- that speaks to the standards within the field, I'm afraid.

I didn't read all the posts, but one alternative that you might consider first is that of a patent engineer (patent agent/technical analyst are other names). Basically you end up being an in house consultant to lawyers working in patent litigation. They want engineers who know their stuff, and it'd be a way for you to get exposure to patent law before deciding to go all in to that career field.

In reality, the minimum workload is about 1 hour of work per night per class that you have the next day. E.g. on wednsday you have 3 classes so that means tuesday after your classes you have at LEAST 3 hours of homework. This is the minimum. 2 hours per class is maybe a better estimation if you don't want to do just the minimum.

The point of reading in law school isn't just to be ready to understand what the prof says. The point is to teach yourself the material completely so when you go to class and your prof starts talking, its almost like a review. My first semester as a 1L I only had one prof I could count on to teach me the material completely even if I went to class knowing nothing.

I wouldn't worry all that much about what law school itself is like. Here's the bottom line: it's not easy. It's a lot of work regardless of how intelligent you are, but obviously you are expecting that-- so there isn't really a great need for us to dwell on it here. Talk to some people you know who are in law school or apply someplace and take a tour and ask students what their average day was like. It is a lot of work, but some of the best times in my life happened while I was in law school- so it's sort of a mixed bag. Things to think about: 1. Think carefully about he debt aspect-- the most important thing to consider is that private loans for cost of living will put you at a fairly high number even if you go to a state school or get a break on the actual tuition. Ultimately you are going to get out and I would just conservative guess you will be paying at least 500 month for the next 30 years-- many people pay more. It's not a big deal if the schooling sets you up with a decent job, but this can be a big if depending on what you want to do. Basically-- subtract at least 6 grand or so from what you will be making at graduation and count on the fact law school is three years of no saving for retirement. It's not a total negative, but I am just telling you to keep these things in mind. Personally, I don't mind these facts because ultimately I think the JD has done more good for my career than the potential damage done by the financial stress of being a law student. Which leads me to... 2. Think about being a student again. Unless you have parents or family who can subsidize you, law school will be an adjustment. I think the max private loans for the year are somewhere around 8k or so. Hopefully you can get a decent summer job, but don't bank on the fact you'll be at BigLaw making 30k, maybe you will-- but assume you won't when making the decision to go to school. Law school for me was very fun at times-- the people I met were great, I lived in a great city with a lot of students and I loved spending time reading in coffee shops. BUT I didn't take much of a vacation for 3 years and I really didn't do any travelling at all because I could not afford it. Basically, count on the fact you'll be on a pretty shoestring budget. 3. What is your goal? If you are interested in moving up in management within the engineering community, then the MBA might be a quicker, less painful, and cheaper way to get this done. If you aren't sure, want to practice patent/IP law, or just want to expand your credentials then law school may be right for you. Additionally, someone else mentioned the geographical issue. If you want to move somewhere else go for top 20. If you want to stay in the area, go wherever is close and cheap and network like hell with local attorneys while in law school. 2 years after graduating for me-- I am not in a traditional practice area (I am a registered state lobbyist), but law school was a good experience. I might have gotten my job in other ways, but ultimately it's a leg up on the competition. Plus, regardless of what anyone might tell you, law school is academic training that will help you in any business where the broad concept of "the law" comes into play (basically all of business and government so far as I can tell...). Getting through the whole thing and taking the bar exam is a royal, royal pain **********, which I would not do a second time if I had the choice, but ultimately it's a positive experience. Do your due diligence (posting here is a good start) and read and learn as much as you can about it, then take the LSATs and apply. Worst case scenario is you don't go, but at least you know the options. PM me if you like-- I could probably give you some better ideas over IM if you have a chance.

Law school shouldn't be easy, since 99% of the practice of law is spent protecting your clients' liberty or money, neither of which they'd want to surrender without a fight.

Issue-spotting, writing, and research are all key components to a legal career, so I don't buy arguments that "law school has nothing to do with the practice of law."

Huntsman, I saw your comment about limiting yourself to a top-15 school. There's an old joke that there are 50 schools in the top-20 (think Syracuse)... anyway, with your background you could expand your list well beyond the top 50 and still see a great return on your investment; no worries there.

RETURNING TO OP:

Wanted to join conversation, albeit late.

Tips (editorial note--see my own "profile" below if you need additional details):

1. There is a big difference and considerable chasm between the $165/yr Big Law jobs in NYC and several other cities, and the "average" law job. Goverment jobs and "contract attorney" are likely even lower still. I.e., there are NOT alot of $60-90 firms out there with "relaxed billable expectations" for folks just outside the BigLaw profile.

2. Agree as to the overall student loan sentiments that predominated above. So long as you don't have significant non-Mortgage debt going in, you will likely be just fine servicing your student loans.

3. Agree as to your potential for scholarship. If you score highly on LSAT, and can turn out a coveted IP-placement for school, there will be some top 20-Top 50 schools interested in throwing $$ at you.

4. Don't be afraid to back-door your way in to BigLaw w/ you expertise/interests, to get an Associate job in IP. You must be top 5%-10% w/ Law Review generally to sign on as Summer Associate at the $165/yr firms. But for a qualified specialist such as yourself, you might get in.

5. But note that -IF- case #4 above, is not in your future for any reason, have a good contingency plan. IF you are not top 10% after first year, begin shifting your vocus solely to in-house/government job/realistic smaller/boutique firm. Do NOT waste capital focusing on BigLaw, unless your uncle is partner, or you meet the criteria. (I was very close to criteria at end of YR1, but it clearly was not in cards. Again, there is a large gap, if you miss there profile).



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My own experience:

Low-tier law school, medium academic peformance (35th percentile grad), law review, good clerking experience at large-city firm (but not "summer associate" firm), law review associate, and also moot court.

My grades were spotty depending on volume of outside activities, and the pure subjectivity of grading. (I had a couple all A-/B+ semesters, and I also had a 3 B-/ lower in 3yr year when I had too many activities going at once.)

Two yrs post-graduation later, I would rate my overall achievement and desirability as a grad approx around top 25 % at my school, but probably right around average for the profession. I.e., low-ranked law school + all other factors equates to right around median, 50%, candidate in the job market.

My connections and "network," were much better than average (based on comparing notes with colleagues and friends). I landed w/ Insurance Defense firm. But it took 5 months of job searching in a *new city* after the Bar.

I learned I passed 3 months before beginning as Associate there. I have been happy w/ firm since and progressed well.

Originally Posted by topbroker

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I understand that all of these can be options, but the bulk of big firm billing is still hourly. And the growth of flat fee billing has come about in part because of justified squawking about hourly billing.

In my legal lives, I have seen abuses of many kinds. At firms where the smallest billing period is a quarter-hour, two-minute phone calls are routinely billed at the full quarter-hour. I have seen five hours of work regularly stretched out to twenty hours of billing. I have seen paralegals and junior associates tacitly encouraged to take as much time as they possibly can over projects (heck, I've been one of those paralegals). I have seen partners who bill at $500.00/hour billing a total of 20 or 21 hours per day for days on end, thinking that if this they split these hours between clients, no one will call them them on the fact that they are biological organisms and that what they are claiming is impossible. I know most of the tricks, believe me, and because of this, when I was legal affairs manager for a sizable manufacturer, in charge of vetting the bills of 25 outside counsel firms worldwide, I was able to reduce our yearly outside legal billings from $1.5 million per year to under $250,000.00 per year. I aggressively fired firms that engaged in abuse and closely monitored those that were more scrupulous. It worked, but only because I did know the tricks.

A lot of firms actually bill by the tenth of an hour - every six minutes! Articling students are actually given timers so that they can learn to keep track of their billables.

Originally Posted by topbroker

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I understand that all of these can be options, but the bulk of big firm billing is still hourly. And the growth of flat fee billing has come about in part because of justified squawking about hourly billing. In my legal lives, I have seen abuses of many kinds. At firms where the smallest billing period is a quarter-hour, two-minute phone calls are routinely billed at the full quarter-hour. I have seen five hours of work regularly stretched out to twenty hours of billing. I have seen paralegals and junior associates tacitly encouraged to take as much time as they possibly can over projects (heck, I've been one of those paralegals). I have seen partners who bill at $500.00/hour billing a total of 20 or 21 hours per day for days on end, thinking that if this they split these hours between clients, no one will call them them on the fact that they are biological organisms and that what they are claiming is impossible. I know most of the tricks, believe me, and because of this, when I was legal affairs manager for a sizable manufacturer, in charge of vetting the bills of 25 outside counsel firms worldwide, I was able to reduce our yearly outside legal billings from $1.5 million per year to under $250,000.00 per year. I aggressively fired firms that engaged in abuse and closely monitored those that were more scrupulous. It worked, but only because I did know the tricks.
I keep a log of all, and I mean all, conversations I have with my organization's lead attorney. I have my secretary reconcile our bill with my call log. On numerous occasions he has tried to bill us when he should not have, for instance when he called me to get an opinion on a facet of a case he was working on for someone else and once, to see if I wanted to go out to lunch.

Originally Posted by Piobaire

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I keep a log of all, and I mean all, conversations I have with my organization's lead attorney. I have my secretary reconcile our bill with my call log. On numerous occasions he has tried to bill us when he should not have, for instance when he called me to get an opinion on a facet of a case he was working on for someone else and once, to see if I wanted to go out to lunch.

You should've billed his ass.