The official CELINE thread

[Fred-JettRink]

Hey guys, does anyone have experience with the FW19/20 Wide-leg cotton trousers? Size down like with SLP and Celine jeans? Fit pics would also be greatly appreciated

 

[kieran84]

The US is obsessed with all this social justice.

Pretty sure East Asians are the biggest consumers of Hedi's clothes anyway, not white or black Americans.

And isn't Hedi himself a minority being Tunisian?

Black people look good in the clothes though, for example Curtis Harding, and I think a bit more diversity on the runway would be a good thing. Hedi should be allowed to cast his shows as he sees fit though, not have to bow to pressure. Nothing he does will ever be enough for the social justice mob anyway.

 

[Lit Harington]

Hey guys, does anyone have experience with the FW19/20 Wide-leg cotton trousers? Size down like with SLP and Celine jeans? Fit pics would also be greatly appreciated

yeah man i went down one on these. give me a sec and i'll try find some fit pics!

 

[GG Allin]

The US is obsessed with all this social justice.

Pretty sure East Asians are the biggest consumers of Hedi's clothes anyway, not white or black Americans.

And isn't Hedi himself a minority being Tunisian?

Black people look good in the clothes though, for example Curtis Harding, and I think a bit more diversity on the runway would be a good thing. Hedi should be allowed to cast his shows as he sees fit though, not have to bow to pressure. Nothing he does will ever be enough for the social justice mob anyway.

Not sure how deeply people want to get into this, but in the US at the moment there's this thing called "wokeness", or being "woke". It refers to the having of correct opinions, usually on matters of race or identity, that is completely divorced from all action, with the notable exception of posturing. So, this "celebrity stylist" guy, gets the cheap high of being able to express his correct view on some matter, but will never do anything in his life about it beyond this.

To me, what's so frustrating about it, is that people like this love to focus on these symbolic areas of social injustice, the correcting of which isn't really going to do a damn thing for any real person's life. You see this every year in the Academy Awards ceremonies, where we don't have enough nominees for racial minority groups. That's going to do **** all for people getting strangled to death in the streets in broad daylight. But that is intentional, because it's not about action, or affecting people's real lives--it's simply about posturing.

I just think it's gross for this "celerity stylist" to snipe at a guy who's probably not racist, and is at best committing some peccadillo.

Besides, I can't be in teh minority here, in simply not really looking at the men wearing the clothes in runway shows (it's different for the women, since I'm straight). I just really don't care.

 

[SirGrotius]

Interesting points, and I learned a new word today (peccadillo - perfect for the current climate!).

On a random note, I'm reading an enjoyable book called Meet Me in the Bathroom about the New York art-rock scene from maybe 1999 - 2010 when bands such as Interpol and the Strokes made a mark. There's a chapter about how Brooklyn went from a real wasteland to super hip, because of the cheap rents and warehouse availability for artists, and intermixed was a great burgeoning music scene. There was a divey club that had a great buzz and they mention that Hedi Slimane was there every night with his sketchbook and pencil. Kind of neat seeing from where some of the early inspiration was drawn.

 

[whorishconsumer]

Hedi Slimane and Celine should not been accused of racism.
Celine is a french brand and France and Europe are not an extension of the U.S. Racism in Europe is very different than american racism (and maybe british racism). European and French brands should not change their way of working and their image everytime an injustice is committed in the Usa, even if it is sad what happened.

This, it's a weird phenomenon where Americans think that their social problems, etc... are somehow a global thing. It reminds me of a 'discussion' years ago on an entirely different topic; In UK computer/video game mags of the 90's, *** was a common abbreviation for Japanese in buy/sell ads, and on this nerd board that I used to read people were using the term, up comes some random American who starts telling them off and how they should stop using it because in the US it's a slur.

Racism is racism. The cultural contexts in which it is expressed may vary, and with it the language. To the extent that we are not yet a fully globalized society, there are elements of this language that may seem non-applicable outside of a given country. However, the fact of racism persists across contexts and carries with it a common core.

I think most of this stuff is wack and I'm sick of this forced diversity ****. If your brand is based on French (or general European) subcultures I have absolutely no problem with the fact that your models are mostly white. If a season is based on Chinese culture for example it would be a different story. Fact is that Hedi's stuff is not, which is why I think he's doing perfectly fine

The fact is that the clothes were made in the spirit of a specific look. That look is probably going to have more models of a specific ethnicity. In this case thin, tall, and gaunt = mostly white.

If you are an artist or designer seeking to represent a specific vision of the world and that vision is limited entirely to white people, then that is racist. The fact that it is is racist is independent of the intent – most well-meaning people are racist at one point or another.

The US is obsessed with all this social justice.

Pretty sure East Asians are the biggest consumers of Hedi's clothes anyway, not white or black Americans.

And isn't Hedi himself a minority being Tunisian?

Our police are murdering our citizens.

The target consumers of a designer's work does not determine whether that designer's choices and actions are racist.

Membership in one minority does not absolve you of racism against another minority.

 

[kieran84]

What do you suggest then enforced quotas?

 

[zrn]

If you are an artist or designer seeking to represent a specific vision of the world and that vision is limited entirely to white people, then that is racist. The fact that it is is racist is independent of the intent – most well-meaning people are racist at one point or another.

But that’s not what’s happening. Designers are representing a specific look derived from a historical inspiration and that historical look is predominantly white (no one is limiting entirely to whites). Therefore models that fit the look are going to be predominantly white from a field already dominated by whites.

That domination may be systematic racism but its not intentional racism from the part of most designers and you need to start with the core issue of developing minority models not forcing a certain percent of minority models.

If we are going to define racism as broadly as anything that results in more of one race over another, then it will be a pointless and useless crusade which will never fix true racism.

 

[SirGrotius]

Whorishconsumer, what is your suggestion? 50% of color? Something else?

I guess there is a point that we don't even chat about using Asian models more often, but Celine is a French brand. Wouldn't it make sense to represent to some degree that region with maybe a boost to people of color to make it feel more inclusive (i.e, 15-20% sounds about right). We're probably overthinking this. I highly doubt that the Celine group is racist. I have found that the French people I know are some of the least racist people possible! They have a very good formation in their speak.

 

[whorishconsumer]

But that’s not what’s happening. Designers are representing a specific look derived from a historical inspiration and that historical look is predominantly white (no one is limiting entirely to whites). Therefore models that fit the look are going to be predominantly white from a field already dominated by whites.

That domination may be systematic racism but its not intentional racism from the part of most designers and you need to start with the core issue of developing minority models not forcing a certain percent of minority models.

If we are going to define racism as broadly as anything that results in more of one race over another, then it will be a pointless and useless crusade which will never fix true racism.

What do you suggest then enforced quotas?

Whorishconsumer, what is your suggestion? 50% of color? Something else?

I guess there is a point that we don't even chat about using Asian models more often, but Celine is a French brand. Wouldn't it make sense to represent to some degree that region with maybe a boost to people of color to make it feel more inclusive (i.e, 15-20% sounds about right).

I think affirmative action, as it is known here in the US and to which I believe you are referring, is a red herring, because it is well-known as having a problematic implementation in the states. Number-crunching regulatory mandates are not a panacea, because people's lived experience does not easily map to Census data.

I do not have have that panacea available to offer you. Not only am I not a person of color, and am therefore limited in what I can accurately represent, but I am also very nascent in my learning. The starting place seems to be willingness to examine and acknowledge any act where you find yourself discriminating based upon race. If you are holding that a runway majority-comprised of white individuals is justified in accordance with geography, culture or historicism, then the starting point might be to ask why that is acceptable or necessary.

 

[GG Allin]

I think affirmative action, as it is known here in the US and to which I believe you are referring, is a red herring, because it is well-known as having a problematic implementation in the states. Number-crunching regulatory mandates are not a panacea, because people's lived experience does not easily map to Census data.

I do not have have that panacea available to offer you. Not only am I not a person of color, and am therefore limited in what I can accurately represent, but I am also very nascent in my learning. The starting place seems to be willingness to examine and acknowledge any act where you find yourself discriminating based upon race. If you are holding that a runway majority-comprised of white individuals is justified in accordance with geography, culture or historicism, then the starting point might be to ask why that is acceptable or necessary.

I strongly agree with this (the whole post, but especially the bolded), but I think it needs to be upheld as a more general principle of self-reflection (i.e. we should always be wondering if our actions and opinions are warranted or not)--which also applies to woke douches like that celebrity designer. I think it cheapens the charge of racism when you apply it to people who probably aren't racist. I mean, we're not talking about a Galliano event here.

And the smug, self-indulgent tone of the celebrity stylist's accusation is just so disgusting, that I feel people on the left need to call it out.

 

[GG Allin]

Interesting points, and I learned a new word today (peccadillo - perfect for the current climate!).

On a random note, I'm reading an enjoyable book called Meet Me in the Bathroom about the New York art-rock scene from maybe 1999 - 2010 when bands such as Interpol and the Strokes made a mark. There's a chapter about how Brooklyn went from a real wasteland to super hip, because of the cheap rents and warehouse availability for artists, and intermixed was a great burgeoning music scene. There was a divey club that had a great buzz and they mention that Hedi Slimane was there every night with his sketchbook and pencil. Kind of neat seeing from where some of the early inspiration was drawn.

Should've multi-quoted, but it's amazing how interesting NYC used to be. I have this book on the post-punk dance music scene ("Life and death on the New York dance floor") that kinda magnifies this view with regard to a different era.

 

[thorns]

I do not have have that panacea available to offer you. Not only am I not a person of color, and am therefore limited in what I can accurately represent, but I am also very nascent in my learning.

Great job in back pedalling and refusing to even try to come up with a solution. It is transparent why you chose to do this, because in reality there is no good solution to the problem. You know that it is obvious that having quotas on the race models is not the right answer.

People can whine and cry all they want, but the market is what dictates what brands do. Why does Saint Laurent continue to make the ****** post-fw13 harness Wyatts? It is because people keep on buying that ****. If you truly want change, demand it from the people and not from the brands. Demand people to stop idolizing France as a symbol of elegance and luxury. Demand people to embrace some US ghetto and think that is the pinnacle of luxury instead. Then things will just naturally change. Brands will start casting more black people because it fits the new narrative better. The people who put the Eurocentric vision on a pedestal is what drives our current situation, and let's be honest it will not be changing any time soon.

 

[Lit Harington]

If you are holding that a runway majority-comprised of white individuals is justified in accordance with geography, culture or historicism, then the starting point might be to ask why that is acceptable or necessary.

who said anything about necessary? it's fashion we're talking about here, necessary is not part of the equation. that seems like a completely meaningless question.

as for acceptable, surely the onus is on someone to suggest why it is unacceptable that a designer should seek to reference a specific time/place as his primary inspiration. why/how on earth has this become a point of contention?

 

[SirGrotius]

on a constructive level (besides even having more conversations), I applaud style forum for calling out some black-owned fashion labels. i realize it's a small step, but supporting and thus empowering black ceos should aid with a trickle-down effect and make these types of efforts superfluous, maybe in 15 years versus 150.