Ongoing Bespoke Projects

[dieworkwear]

Did you get a pair of custom leather pants?

No, just a slightly slimmer cut. I bought a Margiela leather jacket and the color is a shade of blue that I found hard to match with ready-to-wear pants. I also don't fit well into Margiela's regular trousers. So I had something custom made. Wanted something that looked like it could be sold at Margiela, but also fit me.

 

[Encathol Epistemia]

There are usually three fittings: basted, forward, and final. Final fitting is basically the final garment with some basic alterations/ adjustments if necessary. Forward is the stage before the buttonholes are cut. The coat is further along than basted. It's an important fitting because once the buttonholes are cut, it's hard to change certain things. Basted fitting is a very rough stage of the garment. It's often said that the basted fitting is for the tailor.

Toile means a sample of the garment is made from cheap unbleached cloth. You see this used more in womenswear, although sometimes it's done in menswear. I've had toile fittings for a pair of pants I wanted made to match a leather jacket. I've seen SR tailors do toile fittings for coats made from very expensive fabrics. There's a woman in Nashville that does toile fittings for bespoke leather jackets. These things are generally done because the tailor wants to get the fit right before cutting the cloth (maybe the cloth is expensive, the cut is challenging, or like leather, will show perforated holes).

Sometimes toile fitting is called a muslin or calico fitting. They all mean the same thing. Toile is French.

Thank you, I thought that I understood the fitting process well enough for a layman, but I was a little confused on terminology. (I believe that Joseph Genuardi calls the forward fitting a, "slip-on fitting.") Toile threw me off and I always figured that it's better to panic and fear that I'm blithely ignorant than strut forward suspect that I might know anything. This is probably a part of why I have not been very successful in life.

 

[ericgereghty]

My old bespoke tailor refused to do unlined jackets...and he hates doing patch pockets or unstructured shoulders...

To me, this is fair. Not ideal, surely, but at that point, it's a known quantity, and the client can weigh his desire to move forward with an order knowing it.

In construction, there's always a margin of "eh" from both sides (architect and contractor) when it comes to building something from scratch that involves humans. Naturally the architect pays the bills but sometimes they ask for silly things, and we do them, and when they don't like it, we're like, "we did what you asked us to do." Sometimes we as installers forget something, and when they catch it, we ask it they can live with it, and sometimes they push back, and other times they say OK.

I'm not excusing terrible work, but very rarely does anything come out 100% as envisioned. And most tailoring shops are just regular people who pride themselves on making a good product and the customer happy. They're not robots and aren't trying to be. The simple fact that someone is able to craft a suit is still a bit of a mystery to me, and I'm always amazed, if -- at times -- a little disappointed in a commission. But the end result is usually so good that I overlook it and just say "please remember this for next time." Case in point: the last suit Salvo made me had a vest where he put 2 besom pockets on the bottom of the vest, even though I said 4 welted. At first I was very visibly disappointed and told him so, and when his countenance fell I felt like a heel since no one really sees the vest anyway, and I decided to see how we could fix it. I asked him to put flaps on it to imitate the flapped pockets on the outside, and now it looks congruous. I'd never order something like that again, but I'm happy enough with the outcome, and now Salvo knows I hate besom pockets on vests.

Edit: it's my favorite suit

Ethan N. had a post a while ago on his blog about how to deal with disappointments in tailoring. He said it much more eloquently than me, but it was something to the effect of: if you're disappointed by something, just smile and say thank you, then save the request for your next commission.

I remember thinking that it seemed unreasonable at the time, maybe even a bit obsequious. I mean, as Eric noted, you're paying thousands of dollars.

But over time, I've also found that, if the work is genuinely shoddy, I suppose I don't even really care in the end. It would be nice if the person fixes the thing so it's wearable, but I probably won't go back. If the work is generally good, even if some small detail is off, I'd prefer to maintain a good relationship. In the end, those details don't even make that much of a difference. IMO, it's all about the cut.

Solito recently asked me how I wanted the cuff buttons finished on two sport coats. I honestly didn't even remember what I requested.

It's certainly a case of what one is willing to tolerate. To me, much of the reticence on pushing back on incorrect orders seems to be focused on hurting the tailor's feelings and/or poisoning the relationship.
To the former, I have to assume much of the "sting" would be mitigated by the customer not being a complete jerk. While it's not unreasonable to expect an error to be corrected, there's no need to be an asshole in conveying the desire.
To the latter, if expecting (or at the least, preferring) an error to be made right is grounds to significantly diminish the relationship, it's most likely a relationship I want no part of.
Perfectly understandable if others feel differently, but it seems a mindset that is relatively confined to tailoring. As I said, the world of bespoke clothing fascinates me, particularly as I don't (perhaps biased by my primarily LA/NYC upbringing lol) consider myself a particularly standoffish individual.

re: tailors not following directions/requests

Similarly, I know a few old school pizza shops that will give a straight up "no" if you ask for a wackass combo or too many toppings on your order. Don't think there inherently is something wrong with a vendor telling a customer "no" if it goes against their own philosophy, the customer is then free to acquiesce or find someone else...I think the problem arises when the shop says "sure thing!" and then just does what it wants to do in an underhanded fashion. I think the middle ground is where tailors (who most of the time know more than the client) say "try it my way, and if you don't like it, I'll fix it" ...at least that is upfront and honest

mistakes are mistakes, but underhanded actions a bad business practice

Same as above, I consider this perfectly fair. If someone refuses my requests (along with the money that would accompany them), they can tell me to **** off...I couldn't rightly be upset by the refusal.

 

[dauster]

I can't imagine caring enough about the lining to send something back to the tailor. Steed once delivered a summer sport coat to me that was fully lined when I asked for it to be partially lined. Edwin said that he thinks the lining makes a very small difference nowadays in terms of warmth, and asked me to wear it for a while. He said if I didn't like it, he would fix it. But after having worn it for years, I don't know if I can tell the difference.

I think you just have to be a reasonable person. Sometimes mistakes are big and you should ask for a remake. Sometimes I see guys get custom clothes and they expect an unreasonable amount of perfection out of what's essentially a handmade object. In some ways, getting something that's slightly imperfect is part of the point. It humanizes the object and makes it distinct from perfectly stamped out machine-made goods. Granted, sometimes an item is so bad, you have to ask for a remake (or in rare cases a refund). But I think expecting perfection is kind of unrealistic, if not missing the point.

Well, I would partially agree but I think there comes a point when you sell really expensive clothes that the customer just expects almost flawless results. I understand that it's still a handmade product but if you charge these kind of prices i don't care if you charge them because your store rents are high or workers need a higher compensation. Frankly, if you sell luxury items you need to cater to a certain demographic that usually has very high expectations. In my most recent example these expectations were again not met but I still think I have every right to be upset if that happens. For example, Berluti still has not reached out to me after two months (only one really short email they are working on it) to organize my fittings and I have had numerous experiences likes this with tailors/ bookmakers or other luxury products over the years (thank god also a bunch of really good ones). I frankly just demand near perfection when you charge $8k for shoes or suits and that starts with communication and ends with a flawless execution of the final product. However, I increasingly feel sales reps and stores having a way too relaxed attitude towards customer service, attitude and final product. If you cant deliverer a great all around prduct that I don't want to be your customer.

 

[dieworkwear]

Well, I would partially agree but I think there comes a point when you sell really expensive clothes that the customer just expects almost flawless results. I understand that it's still a handmade product but if you charge these kind of prices i don't care if you charge them because your store rents are high or workers need a higher compensation. Frankly, if you sell luxury items you need to cater to a certain demographic that usually has very high expectations. In my most recent example these expectations were again not met but I still think I have every right to be upset if that happens. For example, Berluti still has not reached out to me after two months (only one really short email they are working on it) to organize my fittings and I have had numerous experiences likes this with tailors/ bookmakers or other luxury products over the years (thank god also a bunch of really good ones). I frankly just demand near perfection when you charge $8k for shoes or suits and that starts with communication and ends with a flawless execution of the final product. However, I increasingly feel sales reps and stores having a way too relaxed attitude towards customer service, attitude and final product. If you cant deliverer a great all around prduct that I don't want to be your customer.

dont think anyone is saying the product shouldn't be great, just what level of imperfection someone is willing to put up with. to me, getting something like a fully lined jacket when i asked for half lining isn't that big of a deal, even if it's a let down. i've also had sleeves finished with three buttons instead of the requested two. toe taps put into shoes when i wanted a normal leather sole. trousers with zip flies when i asked for buttons. trouser linings that i didn't expect. so forth.

i expect the cut to be really nice. the other stuff just seems like small beans to me. obvs each person has the right to expect whatever they expect. i just think bespoke is going to be a long slog if you expect perfection out of each order.

 

[dauster]

dont think anyone is saying the product shouldn't be great, just what level of imperfection someone is willing to put up with. to me, getting something like a fully lined jacket when i asked for half lining isn't that big of a deal, even if it's a let down. i've also had sleeves finished with three buttons instead of the requested two. toe taps put into shoes when i wanted a normal leather sole. trousers with zip flies when i asked for buttons. trouser linings that i didn't expect. so forth.

i expect the cut to be really nice. the other stuff just seems like small beans to me. obvs each person has the right to expect whatever they expect. i just think bespoke is going to be a long slog if you expect perfection out of each order.

sure, life is generally more relaxed for everyone including yourself if small mistakes don't mean anything to you or barely make a difference but I question why perfection in the very high end segment should not be normal... especially if custom makers loose money by redoing an order, well maybe they should have paid more attention to detail when executing them. anyways I get your general point. But if I mess up in my job than I get sued or fired and people potentially loose a lot of money. Most jobs have consequences if the a job is poorly done.

 

[Despos]

Thank you, I thought that I understood the fitting process well enough for a layman, but I was a little confused on terminology. (I believe that Joseph Genuardi calls the forward fitting a, "slip-on fitting.") Toile threw me off and I always figured that it's better to panic and fear that I'm blithely ignorant than strut forward suspect that I might know anything. This is probably a part of why I have not been very successful in life.

Forward fitting, second fitting, slip on; all are terms for the same thing. I’ve never use the term toile but did here because it was used in the post I was responding to.
I’m from the Midwest and we drink pop. On the east coast it’s soda.

 

[S K M]

It’s an interesting discussion. When I started doing bespoke I was obsessed with all details and getting them exactly right (in my own view, of course). My first wake-up call was when I commissioned a peacoat with a Danish tailor, and I had made a number of very specific request after spending too many hours studying the work of Davide Taub. Anyway, at my first fitting I realised that some of my request had not been followed. I then dared to ask “But didn’t I specify that...?” to which the tailor bluntly replied “yes you did, but I over ruled you. Well, simply because it would look like ****”.

I was a bit shocked and surprised, but it dawned upon me that he really had an opinion on this piece of work, his piece of work, and that in a wicked way this was his coat as much as mine. And I do have to say that it flattered me a bit that he took so great interest in my, or should I say our, garment. When I was there to pick up the final garment I was still a bit hesitant when I tried it on, as I felt It was a bit too loose in the wait and should be taken further in. I was however also hesitant to mention it directly, as I didn’t want to be difficult, but instead tried with a “maybe I should just wear it for a while and then see...” My tailor however replied with a “No. I can feel that you are not satishfied, and you should not leave my shop with a product you are not satishfied with. Come back next week.” I did come back next week, and I slid the peacoat on with my tailor commenting: “and if you want it taken further in I’ll scream”. This wasn’t neccesary, however, as the coat was fantastic and I have worn it ever since with great pleasure.

Ever since, I find myself giving tailors fewer and fewer directions to a point where I am almost under-specifying my commissions. Both because it’s dreadful to micro manage, but above all because I won’t work with a tailor who’s skills and taste I do not trust; a tailor where you need to over-specify (I have tried that and the results are never worth it). Of course you can still get disappointed like when you would have liked other buttons, but that’s a reminder to me to specify the buttons I want next time. And things also go wrong, like on my just recieved linen jacket that was made to a 3R2 rather then just 2B, but would I demand a remake? Never.

 

[dieworkwear]

I think maybe I've also just heard so many horror stories from tailors, I'm a bit cautious of being "that guy."

A tailor once told me about a guy who came in with all these photos he found on the internet (all very #menswaer blogs, of course). He wanted a pair of pants and wanted the pants to look exactly like this stuff he saw online. Granted, bespoke pants are very expensive and this was his first commission. So he was reasonably eager and perhaps a bit anxious.

But he also grilled this tailor about all these fabrics. Like "have you heard of Smiths?" and "Have you heard of W Bill?" It wasn't so much that he was interested in those fabrics as he was trying to quizz this tailor on how much he knew.

Anyway, this guy goes and makes up a pair of pants for this customer. And, of course, it took a billion fittings cause there was always something "wrong." The thing is, pants move. Fabric moves. And the guy didn't quite understand that the internet is full of perfectly curated photos. In real life, people move and shift. It bordered on neurotic.

After a billion fittings, the guy finally takes the order home. Then he comes back a week later or so, and is seemingly unhappy about the cut. So he asks this tailor to film him as he's walking down the street. Literally hands him his iPhone, asks him to record, and walk behind him around the entire San Francisco block like some servant. The tailor felt humiliated, but you know, what are you going to do? If you throw this guy out, he'll raise a stink on the internet.

So he trails behind him, filming this guy, and when they get back to the shop, they both watch the video on this tiny iPhone screen. The guy is unhappy with the way the fabric swishes. At this point, the guy demands a refund, and the tailor is relieved. At least this way he can cut himself off from the order, rather than having to try to remake this thing (which, of course, would just be more time and money, and subsequent remakes, because this guy will never be satisfied. At this point, he was already losing money).

I know the above isn't really what people are referring to, and people here have much more reasonable expectations. I've had a shoe order go so wrong, I asked for a refund. But I admit, I also don't want to be "that guy." I think the internet has produced a certain kind of customer that's unpleasant to deal with.

 

[classicalthunde]

Anyway, at my first fitting I realised that some of my request had not been followed. I then dared to ask “But didn’t I specify that...?” to which the tailor bluntly replied “yes you did, but I over ruled you. Well, simply because it would look like ****”.

But if he felt this way at the outset, why didn't he let you know then when it was relevant?! Or if after working on the piece he realized it wouldn't work in practice, why not reach out and manage expectations...Could you imagine ordering a specific color car from the factory cause it was unavailable stock, and then when it arrived it was one of the stock colors and the explanation was "meh, that color sucks anyways i did you a favor" ...its an extreme example, but the principle is the same, its still the same car with the same function and silhouette just a difference of details

I do bespoke/MTM cause I am tough to fit, so that is my primary motivation. But a close secondary one is details...I am getting ready to order a traditional navy blazer with swelled edges, a 3r2 button stance, and a particularly spaced 2-button cuff cause I cannot find one OTR with those details that fit me. If my tailor just ignores that and does what he wants cause it is aesthetically not to his liking without letting me know, I would certainly be asking for a remake/refund or at the minimum that my next commission is at-cost and to spec

edit: mistakes are mistakes and if that is the cause it is within reason, but if the explanation as to how it happened involves willfully misleading me then hes either gotta make it right or he's out a customer.

 

[dieworkwear]

Could you imagine ordering a specific color car from the factory cause it was unavailable stock, and then when it arrived it was one of the stock colors and the explanation was "meh, that color sucks anyways i did you a favor" ...its an extreme example, but the principle is the same, its still the same car with the same function and silhouette.

NO PEACOAT FOR YOU!

 

[S K M]

But if he felt this way at the outset, why didn't he let you know then when it was relevant?! Or if after working on the piece he realized it wouldn't work in practice, why not reach out and manage expectations...Could you imagine ordering a specific color car from the factory cause it was unavailable stock, and then when it arrived it was one of the stock colors and the explanation was "meh, that color sucks anyways i did you a favor" ...its an extreme example, but the principle is the same, its still the same car with the same function and silhouette just a difference of details

I do bespoke/MTM cause I am tough to fit, so that is my primary motivation. But a close secondary one is details...I am getting ready to order a traditional navy blazer with swelled edges, a 3r2 button stance, and a particularly spaced 2-button cuff cause I cannot find one OTR with those details that fit me. If my tailor just ignores that and does what he wants cause it is aesthetically not to his liking without letting me know, I would certainly be asking for a remake/refund or at the minimum that my next commission is at-cost and to spec

edit: mistakes are mistakes and if that is the cause it is within reason, but if the explanation as to how it happened involves willfully misleading me then hes either gotta make it right or he's out a customer.

In all fairness it was minor things like how the sleeve was finished, and I believe that he actually followed my thinking when we discussed it, but after trying to execute it he realised it wouldn’t be a winner. Therefore I don’t think it’s like buying a car in a different colour at all, after all it’s not like my tailor made it single breasted rather than double breasted. And again, I love the coat today.

 

[Texasmade]

I think maybe I've also just heard so many horror stories from tailors, I'm a bit cautious of being "that guy."

A tailor once told me about a guy who came in with all these photos he found on the internet (all very #menswaer blogs, of course). He wanted a pair of pants and wanted the pants to look exactly like this stuff he saw online. Granted, bespoke pants are very expensive and this was his first commission. So he was reasonably eager and perhaps a bit anxious.

But he also grilled this tailor about all these fabrics. Like "have you heard of Smiths?" and "Have you heard of W Bill?" It wasn't so much that he was interested in those fabrics as he was trying to quizz this tailor on how much he knew.

Anyway, this guy goes and makes up a pair of pants for this customer. And, of course, it took a billion fittings cause there was always something "wrong." The thing is, pants move. Fabric moves. And the guy didn't quite understand that the internet is full of perfectly curated photos. In real life, people move and shift. It bordered on neurotic.

After a billion fittings, the guy finally takes the order home. Then he comes back a week later or so, and is seemingly unhappy about the cut. So he asks this tailor to film him as he's walking down the street. Literally hands him his iPhone, asks him to record, and walk behind him around the entire San Francisco block like some servant. The tailor felt humiliated, but you know, what are you going to do? If you throw this guy out, he'll raise a stink on the internet.

So he trails behind him, filming this guy, and when they get back to the shop, they both watch the video on this tiny iPhone screen. The guy is unhappy with the way the fabric swishes. At this point, the guy demands a refund, and the tailor is relieved. At least this way he can cut himself off from the order, rather than having to try to remake this thing (which, of course, would just be more time and money, and subsequent remakes, because this guy will never be satisfied. At this point, he was already losing money).

I know the above isn't really what people are referring to, and people here have much more reasonable expectations. I've had a shoe order go so wrong, I asked for a refund. But I admit, I also don't want to be "that guy." I think the internet has produced a certain kind of customer that's unpleasant to deal with.

My 2 bespoke suits, I didn't specify every little detail. I mainly said 2 button vs 1 button, SB vs DB, pockets, lapels, and type of pants. All of the other things, I left the cutter decide. When I did my fitting, I would specify if things were too tight or felt too baggy. I don't like micromanaging every little detail. I'm more concerned that the big things are what I specified. After that I leave it to the tailor to do his job.

 

[S K M]

And the peacoat turned out quite nicely after all...

(though I later had the buttons replaced by some bigger, vintage ones...)

 

[classicalthunde]

In all fairness it was minor things like how the sleeve was finished, and I believe that he actually followed my thinking when we discussed it, but after trying to execute it he realised it wouldn’t be a winner. Therefore I don’t think it’s like buying a car in a different colour at all, after all it’s not like my tailor made it single breasted rather than double breasted. And again, I love the coat today.

Fair, I was picturing something more fundamental to what you wanted to accomplish, like trying to emulate a Huntsman-style jacket and having him refuse to do 1-button with hacking pockets