english shoes quality heirachy

[ManofKent]

Originally Posted by Macallan

More surprising than Church's being underrated, is Cleverley's Anthony range being completely ignored, which I would rank above JL, G&G and EG.

As for the shoe-makers mentioned I would say:
Church's Royal Collection
C&J Handgrade
Church's/C&J
Trickers
Cheaneys
Barkers
Loake

I have missed out Barker Black because I have never seen a pair.

I've yet to try Cleverley or Lobb so can't really comment on those. I'd forgotten Church do a Royal Collection, and have no experience of them. I don't know how the Cheaney buy out will change their position - I think their Signature range is currently underated (as with Barker's Hand-Crafted collection).

I suppose Trickers should be split into Corniche and Jermyn Street ranges, and for all the manufacturers it does depend whether you're looking at more country footwear or dress oxfords...

 

[archetypal_yuppie]

Originally Posted by Macallan

More surprising than Church's being underrated, is Cleverley's Anthony range being completely ignored, which I would rank above JL, G&G and EG.

I would guess that not many people have experience with them, and you can't have a very well informed opinion about them if you haven't worn them.

I'd like to add, I think there's a significant gap in quality from [ EG and Lobb ] down to G&G. They cover their shoes with stylish aesthetic, but I think EG far better in terms of craftsmanship, and in my experience, leather.

 

[Champagnelifestylenomoney]

I'd suggest something like...

Edward Green/John Lobb (tie)
Church's Royal Collection
C&J Handgrade
G. C. Cleverley RTW
Grenson Masterpiece /Stuarts Choice
Church's
C&J
Trickers
New & Lingwood
Cheaneys
Alfred Sargent
Grenson
Barkers
Loake

 

[sw20]

Quality/durability may also vary by EG MTO or TD vs JL's super-duper iteration

And at least in US seems like JL has limited super-duper iterations readily available for spec to custs in places like Manhattan or PaloAlto where convenient MTM/MTO/bespoke shopping mechanics, not price, are non-negotiable

 

[ManofKent]

Originally Posted by Champagnelifestylenomoney

I'd suggest something like...

Edward Green/John Lobb (tie)
Church's Royal Collection
C&J Handgrade
G. C. Cleverley RTW
Grenson Masterpiece /Stuarts Choice
Church's
C&J
Trickers
New & Lingwood
Cheaneys
Alfred Sargent
Grenson
Barkers
Loake

I didn't think New & Lingwood produced shoes - aren't they re-badged from multiple sources?

I'd put Grenson Rushden pretty low (and Grenson Feathermaster right at the bottom), but Grenson Rose I'd put much higher.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Originally Posted by ManofKent

Interesting. I agree Church make very solid decent shoes, and their soles are particularly good, but I find the leather used on the uppers on the pair I own (and others I've handled) to be a bit stiff and rather 'flat'. I own a couple of pairs of C&J Benchgrade and like them, but attention to detail on finishing isn't as good as that on my Grenson Rose, Barker Hand-Crafted or Trickers.

It's difficult - is a softer more supple leather upper like Barker use on their Hand-Crafted, better than the tougher more damage resistant leather Grenson use on their Rose collection? I'm not sure. Some people put more value on closed channeling - providing the stitches are recessed enough for me it's not that important.

It's also difficult not to take value into consideration.

I can only assess quality on how the leather looks and feels, what the finishing is like and where I own them (and I own at least one pair from most of the major English manufacturers up to the Edward Green price point) how well they wear, how well they take polish etc. I've not the money or knowledge to cut them up and examine the internal construction.

I know what you mean about Chruch's uppers. They seem to be a bit on the "bland" side, but their calfs are pretty good. They have been doing a lot with "polished binder", which is just corrected grain, while it does have a certain appeal when new I have never seen corrected shoes that look good after some good wear, regardless of the quality of the actual leather.

 

[ManofKent]

Originally Posted by sw20

Quality/durability may also vary by EG MTO or TD vs JL's super-duper iteration

And at least in US seems like JL has limited super-duper iterations readily available for spec to custs in places like Manhattan or PaloAlto where convenient MTM/MTO/bespoke shopping mechanics, not price, are non-negotiable

I've got both EG standard and MTO and in my limited experience haven't seen a quality difference.

I think calf v suede also makes a difference - the quality of suede doesn't seem to increase with price as much as calf does.

 

[emptym]

MoK, your list looks pretty good to me. Have you handled a pair from Alfred Sargent's new Handgrade line? The pics of their finishing look excellent to me, and since they will have high end details like finer calfskin, oak bark tanned soles, leather toe and heel stiffeners, I would think they would be at the top of English RTW, along w/ G&G and EG.

 

[cwh812]

Originally Posted by ManofKent

I've got both EG standard and MTO and in my limited experience haven't seen a quality difference.

I think calf v suede also makes a difference - the quality of suede doesn't seem to increase with price as much as calf does.

Given the (relatively) small incremental difference in price I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in EG Standard to EG MTO. I think MTO just gives you the option to choose the exact color, leather type, size, etc... for items that might not necessarily always be in stock. Top Drawer though is another matter. I've never seen top drawer so I can't comment.

 

[NoVaguy]

My Anglo-American list, based on personal experience. AE and Alden are thrown in to serve as benchmarks:

1) EG (RLPL - model is the camden)

2) C&J Handgrade/Grenson Masterpiece (plus Paul Stuart, which is Masterpiece level in my opinion)

3) Tricker's (very close behind the Handgrade/Masterpiece level - I own two, the Marlowe derby and the Lambourn)

4) Polo Made in England, especially the shell cordovans (C&J Benchgrade to handgrade level) I own quite a few of these (the Darlton wingtip, the Oxnard backstrap boot, and quite a few pairs of suede boots).

5) AE/Alden/Alfred Sargent (the LE desert boot that ended up on the counter)/Grenson Footmaster/BB Peal (Sargent or C&J)/Some Polo Made in England

6) Barker (based a leather heeled/corrected grained monster that I picked up on the 'bay; I also owned a honey colored dress shoe but sold it without wearing it)

I don't have any experience with Loake, I don't think I have much experience with Sanders (unless some of those Polo's are from Sanders), definitely don't have experience with Grensons newer lines (Rose and Rushden) and don't have any experience with Cheaney or Church's. My experience with Alden is limited to a single pair of longwings (with a commando sole) that I hated, as well as BB models that I've seen in the stores. I wear a lot of AE's, since that aesthetic works well for me - especially the 360 welting.

I have experience with some Martegani and Cortina from Ron Rider and would put those in the Polo made in England level, above AE and Alden.

 

[mr monty]

No love for Barker Blacks

 

[mr monty]

Originally Posted by Champagnelifestylenomoney

I'd suggest something like...

Edward Green/John Lobb (tie)
Church's Royal Collection
C&J Handgrade
G. C. Cleverley RTW
Grenson Masterpiece /Stuarts Choice
Church's
C&J
Trickers
New & Lingwood
Cheaneys
Alfred Sargent
Grenson
Barkers
Loake

The Thom Browne Trickers and the recent batch of C21 Trickers rank a lot higher than middle of the pack.

 

[Leather man]

Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie

I would guess that not many people have experience with them, and you can't have a very well informed opinion about them if you haven't worn them.

I'd like to add, I think there's a significant gap in quality from [ EG and Lobb ] down to G&G. They cover their shoes with stylish aesthetic, but I think EG far better in terms of craftsmanship, and in my experience, leather.

I am glad you've made that point because I agree. Having got quite a few pairs from EG and G&G I would say EG is better in terms of leather and finishing.

The low positioning of Church's in some of the lists is just ridiculous. Cheaney Signature are in no way better than Church's - neither are Alfred Sargent ( excluding the new MTO range) Cheaney leathers ( even Signature) are inferior to Church's leathers - yes I have both!

 

[ManofKent]

Originally Posted by emptym

MoK, your list looks pretty good to me. Have you handled a pair from Alfred Sargent's new Handgrade line? The pics of their finishing look excellent to me, and since they will have high end details like finer calfskin, oak bark tanned soles, leather toe and heel stiffeners, I would think they would be at the top of English RTW, along w/ G&G and EG.

I've not even handled them - only seen photos but they look very promising.

Originally Posted by Leather man

I am glad you've made that point because I agree. Having got quite a few pairs from EG and G&G I would say EG is better in terms of leather and finishing.

The low positioning of Church's in some of the lists is just ridiculous. Cheaney Signature are in no way better than Church's - neither are Alfred Sargent ( excluding the new MTO range) Cheaney leathers ( even Signature) are inferior to Church's leathers - yes I have both!

Interesting - I own Church, Cheaney and AS Premier and whilst the leather on my Church's is probably the thickest it's also the 'flatest' feeling - there's no depth in the colour, the finishing of the welt isn't any better than the other two either. Maybe if I owned a larger sample of each I would draw different conclusions.

 

[Leather man]

Cheaney leathers feel more "brittle" somehow maybe less oils in them?

I asked Church's factory shop about this and the manager said the biggest difference between Church and Cheaney was in the quality of the calf leather used. That's what I observe too

I will say Cheaney's welt stiching is very good indeed, better than some of my Church's!

Remember thickness of leather doesn't equate with lower quality. I am told Edward Green once used much thicker leather than they now do and that John Lobb London still do. Its an old world asthetic and often leads to longer lasting uppers - providing the leather is supple enough - all mine are.

Church's do use thinner leathers on their 108 last range however.

I certainly would not defend Church's at all costs, especially now the Church family have left the company. I think already we are seeing the increasingly dead hand of the "hand bag company" at work - the new 119 last range with albeit beautiful uppers but a dreadfully named Italian sole unit that is not worthy of the £445 price tag Church's are charging. Bring back the Royals!!

Cheaney are really going to give Church's a run for their money once their new ranges are out along with the new website - pity however that they are sticking with one width fitting for most ranges. That's is where Church's win - offering two to three for most of their shoes.