english shoes quality heirachy

[Siggy]

Originally Posted by Roger Kearey

I would say that the quality of C&J Bench is far better than that of Church's. I heard a rumour on Saturday from the cool salesman in C&J, Burlington arcade that Church's are going to introduce shirts & suits! ha ha they're a joke now.


Church's already makes nice ties; I have one.

As far as RTW English shoes, MoK's list pretty much corresponds to my ideas, but don't forget that some of the makers have different lines and levels of quality, plus the price factor. For instance, Churches are way overpriced on the Continent, often going for EUR 600 or more, significantly more expensive than C&J Handgrades. EG and JL are also overpriced IMO, even though I would agree that they are probably the top brands in terms of quality and style.

 

[GrumbleGrumble]

Originally Posted by -AJ-

I'm shopping for new shoes, oxfords or semi-brogues, with a budget of about GBP 150.

£155 at Bicester Village will get you a pair of Church's Balmorals (plain-looking Oxford on last 73) - though being outlet the stock availability might be hit and miss. If that's no good to you, I'd probably suggest looking at Herring Shoes' own line - plenty within budget on there, and they're supposed to be better quality than the manufacturers' own products.

 

[Macallan]

Church's at Bicester Village are always helpful, call them beforehand to find out if the trip is worth making.

For about £155, you can get shoes from their normal range, instead of the inferior modern 73 last. Oxfords at sale are available from £160 and seconds from £150; while there, you can get their shoe-trees for £25 and £35.

 

[NoVaguy]

Originally Posted by Leather man

P.S. I do groan at the fact that a couple of members have brought in Allen Edmonds and Alden to this discussion - two American companies The OP clearly asked about English shoes!! Its a bit like AAAC where there's very little interest in any shoe make outside AE!
I only see a few posts asking where certain American makes would correspond in the rankings - it seems to be a relatively pertinent question that tries to get an idea of what each person's individual ranking might mean. For example, you may have someone with a lot of experience with Alden who is interested in English shoes that are of similar or better quality, and knowing where people rank Alden against English shoes would be extremely useful as a guide as to which English shoes to try. It seems a little too much to complain about that - AE and Alden are probably the shoes most American members of a mostly American forum would have experience with, and serve as an useful benchmark to give an idea of each members relative preferences. And the discussion goes where the discussion goes; it's not controlled by the OP. I think it is useful to have an idea where the relative qualities. Certainly, as I noted above, if you were interested in experimenting with English shoes and already had some experience with American shoes (as an American might be likely to have), having an idea of what is better or worse would allow one to focus on areas of interest (presumably, the English shoes that are better than the easily available American shoes).

If this were a thread about American shoemakers I would not inject a plug for an English make, I'd just stay out of the discussion because I have no personal experience of those makes.

If I were on an English or continental forum and ask to rank American shoes, I think I would insert a few english or continental makes to give a fuller idea of where they rank. It's just extremely useful information. That's why I inserted the two American companies and the two Continental makes that I did.

 

[the_sartorialist]

Originally Posted by ManofKent

+1 - if you're just talking a minor scratch in an inobtrusive area of the shoe, or better still a minor colour variation that will soon be covered up by a few layers of polish then it's a no-brainer.

Kind of thought as much. Only reason why I am asking is that I am in the market for wholecuts, and found a pair of Barker's Alderney that was supposed to be in Acorn, but the colour variation is quite 'off' giving it a more greenish-brown hue which in my opinion, looks pretty amazing. So it's being sold at £150 instead of its usual £325. Still thinking whether I should get it or wait till I head up to the factories in Northampton on the coming Saturday.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Originally Posted by ManofKent

More than my wife thinks I need

Must sought out a group shot once I've got some racks assembled and polished/brushed them all.

Nothing wrong with Loake 1880's - if I drew up a list of shoes based on value for money, they'd be near the top.


That's great to hear MoK, though I hope you don't hide new shoe purchases from your wife. This could be indicative of a shoe problem

I have found what looks like a great traditional shoe shop, they stock the following (in bold) from your list

Edward Green
C&J Handgrade
Trickers
Grenson Rose
Barker Hand-crafted
Alfred Sargent Premier
C&J Benchgrade
Cheaney Signature
Church
C&J Benchgrade
Church
Cheaney (most)
Barker non-hand-crafted calf
Sanders calf
Loake 1880
Alfred Sargent Classic
Sanders non-calf, Loake non-calf, Grenson Feathermaster, Barkers non-calf


http://www.watkinsonsshoes.com/

I will be visiting them next weekend I think. York is great for tea and coffee also, so I may pick some up there

 

[TheWGP]

Originally Posted by NoVaguy

For example, you may have someone with a lot of experience with Alden who is interested in English shoes that are of similar or better quality, and knowing where people rank Alden against English shoes would be extremely useful as a guide as to which English shoes to try.

I think it is useful to have an idea where the relative qualities. Certainly, as I noted above, if you were interested in experimenting with English shoes and already had some experience with American shoes (as an American might be likely to have), having an idea of what is better or worse would allow one to focus on areas of interest (presumably, the English shoes that are better than the easily available American shoes).

+1 - this is exactly my situation. The only English shoes I own are C&J benchgrade for Tom James, and Cheaney for Dack's - but I have lots of Aldens! This thread is definitely quite informative in terms of thinking of English "next steps."

 

[alexmvargas]

Great thoughts on English shoe hierarchy.

I'm wondering how you all would change your lists if you ranked them in terms of value?

At what price point do you start to see diminishing returns? To me, $500-$700-ish feel about right, i.e. your paying at least twice as much for EG than C&J but probably not getting twice as good a shoe.

 

[the_sartorialist]

Originally Posted by alexmvargas

Great thoughts on English shoe hierarchy.

I'm wondering how you all would change your lists if you ranked them in terms of value?

At what price point do you start to see diminishing returns? To me, $500-$700-ish feel about right, i.e. your paying at least twice as much for EG than C&J but probably not getting twice as good a shoe.
Interesting twist there - due to budgetary constraints, I would certainly be more keen to see a 'value for money' list in addition to the pure 'hierarchical list'.

 

[Leather man]

Originally Posted by -AJ-

Following this thread - good opinions here.

I'd like to turn the tables a little if I may (don't mean to hijack this thread).

I'm shopping for new shoes, oxfords or semi-brogues, with a budget of about GBP 150. Realise this is at the lower end of the scale, but I would value any guidance on which of the above mentioned english manufacturers I should start with. Loake are at that end of the market, but seem to have a low rep here. I found some nice C&Js, but at GBP300, it's hard for me to justify. Single income - (Wife + baby + mortgage) = -AJ- needs to keep a lid on the shopping!

Shoes will be part of a 4-pair rotation. I do walk a bit in the shoes, so sole quality is important.

Any opinions welcomed.

Ta.

Although most of us have put Loake at the bottom they are still good shoes. I wouldn't knock their 1880 range - some nice styles and I think their leathers have got better.

You might look at Danite rubber soles if hard wearing soles are important to you.

Otherwise keep trawling Herrings website for Church's seconds - you may need to pay a little more than £150 but you will be able to obtain a Church shoe at half price.

 

[Leather man]

Originally Posted by DWFII

Maybe I missed some qualifier in the OP but I think if you're talking about English shoes you have to put John Lobb St. James Street at the top of the list in anyone's ranking.

I agree that John Lobb St James are the optimum for English shoes in terms of quality. However the OP clearly listed RTW makes only so we've responded accordingly.

 

[Leather man]

WRT a couple of responses - namely a desire to bring American makes into the discussion and bespoke companies too I want to say what all my school teachers said many years ago as we prepared for our examinations:

"Read the question!" Answers that do not answer the question will be discounted!

 

[ManofKent]

Originally Posted by alexmvargas

Great thoughts on English shoe hierarchy.

I'm wondering how you all would change your lists if you ranked them in terms of value?

At what price point do you start to see diminishing returns? To me, $500-$700-ish feel about right, i.e. your paying at least twice as much for EG than C&J but probably not getting twice as good a shoe.

Originally Posted by the_sartorialist

Interesting twist there - due to budgetary constraints, I would certainly be more keen to see a 'value for money' list in addition to the pure 'hierarchical list'.

Perceptions of quality are to a degree subjective - perceptions of value for money get extremely subjective.

The small step in price from corrected grain shoes to Loake 1880 or Sanders Ambassador is a big step in quality and makes these very good value to my mind.

Beyond that the laws of diminishing returns do kick in very quickly and you're paying a lot more for a small increment in quality.

Better quality leather uppers will probably last longer, and will therefore make it more economically viable to have the shoe resoled more times. Better quality soles may last longer too...

How much value do you place on styling, or if you're so minded, exclusivity?

Personally I think at full retail Church are over-priced for the quality, to a lesser degree so are C&J these days. Cheaney and Barker Barker Handcrafted are in my view very well priced. Others may disagree.

 

[Pundit]

If you can find them, I would put Grenson Masterpiece/Stuart's Choice equal to or slightly ahead of C&J Handgrade.

 

[Dexx]

While I haven't worn them all personally, keep in mind that all shoes are at a very high level. If a Loake 1880 is at 80%, it only costs around 150 Pounds. If you don't mind paying twice or three times as much for 10%-20% more quality, it is up to you. Beside this, it comes down to marketing, what brand is seen as a status symbol and how much you like show off a little bit.