Is becoming a lawyer a mistake?

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

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Having never worked my way up a legal ladder, I probably would agree with you here. Life in finance is at its most hellish in two distinct phases. The first phase is when you're just starting out. You bust your ass to prove that you're better than the others in your class/program. The second hell-phase comes right around the transition to VP. Once you earn that chevron, you need to prove that you're worth it.

Just know this: the divorce rate amongst lawyers is the highest amongst all professions. I would shoot myself in the face before marrying a partner at a big firm.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Think deep thoughts and don't go to law school. Every other philosophy major I knew in law school had trouble adjusting to legal "reasoning". It's incredibly counter-intuitive and has nothing to do with logic.
This is an exaggeration at best. Of course, one needs to start with the right premises when reasoning logically.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Just know this: the divorce rate amongst lawyers is the highest amongst all professions.
Probably because we get professional courtesy discounts. Or, perhaps, it's in part a reflection on the make-ups and values of those who enter the profession rather than solely a reflection on the collateral effects of being a lawyer.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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This is an exaggeration at best. Of course, one needs to start with the right premises when reasoning logically.
Legal reasoning is largely the interpretation and application of past inferential patterns. To the extent deductions are made, they take place after that process has run and are not the meat of the argument. I'd say practicing law is far more analogous to learning a language than doing analytical philosophy. If it weren't we wouldn't need to distinguish "legal reasoning" from logic in the first place.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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Probably because we get professional courtesy discounts.
Ha, that's a new one to me.

Something tells me we might be offered a little show of legal style argument ... right here.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Legal reasoning is largely the interpretation and application of past inferential patterns. To the extent deductions are made, they take place after that process has run and are not the meat of the argument. I'd say practicing law is far more analogous to learning a language than doing analytical philosophy. If it weren't we wouldn't need to distinguish "legal reasoning" from logic in the first place.

In other words, the kind of people who make good lawyers are the ones who underlined and highlighted and cross-referenced and sticky-noted every key passage in every book they read in high school, and who could bust stuff out semi-creatively on essays or tests because they'd practiced doing so every which way.

I was that kid in high school, and pretty much everyone in my circle of friends and family laments the fact that I didn't become a lawyer. Occasionally, I did. Occasionally, I still do. But the lifestyle just never appealed to me. It didn't seem worth the money. I'm all for busting ******, of course, but only if I know I'm getting the best possible return -- financial or otherwise -- for ******-busting. This has not always been a fantastic career or life philosophy, but it seems to be the guiding philosophy among most finance types I know.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Legal reasoning is largely the interpretation and application of past inferential patterns. To the extent deductions are made, they take place after that process has run and are not the meat of the argument. I'd say practicing law is far more analogous to learning a language than doing analytical philosophy. If it weren't we wouldn't need to distinguish "legal reasoning" from logic in the first place.




I think that's a fair, if overstated, generalization. That said, my real point was that I'm not sure why that makes it counter-intuitive or illogical.

Originally Posted by RSS

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Something tells me we might be offered a little show of legal style argument ... right here.
I don't argue lawyerly at all, actually. I'm terrible at making legal arguments.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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I think that's a fair, if overstated, generalization. That said, my real point was that I'm not sure why that makes it counter-intuitive or illogical.
It's counter-intuitive to me, I should say. Many find it very intuitive. However, I do think legal reasoning is illogical to a significant extent, as arguments are typically advanced without respect to logical reasoning. The interpretation and application of rules and precedents are more matters of inferring from tradition, custom, and common sense. So long as such inferences drive legal reasoning instead of deductions based on fully coherent premises, I don't see how you can call it logical.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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The median salary for all U.S. lawyers is $90k a year. BigLaw pays $160k base + $30k bonus the first year out of law school, more than double. I know there are many non-BigLaw lawyers who make a good income, but on a whole they make much less.

Those non-Biglaw lawyers make much less right out of the gate, but you've already correctly pointed out that the majority (by number) of Biglaw attorneys are young associates. They will last a few years before quitting or being pushed out by the highly leveraged, pyramid employment structure.

And then what are they going to do? Some will have marketable skills and be able to 'trade-down' to a mid-law job or open their own practice. But if they practiced in structured finance . . . well they are pretty boned.

While there are fewer attorneys at each small or medium-sized firm, their careers there are typically longer. People presume they make small or medium money, because their firms aren't on the AmLaw 100 list, aren't sponsoring event after event, and aren't giving away lots of free stuff to 23 year old law students at 2L OCI. But when you're talking about actual take-home pay, it's nothing to sneeze at.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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And then what are they going to do?
As the saying goes "those who can't do, teach" Education is rife with former lawyers.

Originally Posted by crazyquik

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While there are fewer attorneys at each small or medium-sized firm, their careers there are typically longer. People presume they make small or medium money, because their firms aren't on the AmLaw 100 list, aren't sponsoring event after event, and aren't giving away lots of free stuff to 23 year old law students at 2L OCI. But when you're talking about actual take-home pay, it's nothing to sneeze at.

But isn't this extremely variable to the point that it's impossible to generalize? I mean like some are on BigLaw levels and others are like equivalent to a journeyman electrician?

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Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Think deep thoughts and don't go to law school. Every other philosophy major I knew in law school had trouble adjusting to legal "reasoning". It's incredibly counter-intuitive and has nothing to do with logic.

I was being a bit facetious with my statement, but as a serious response; for us liberal arts majors there really isn't any other choice. Not all of us have the chutzpah to self employ ourselves or the desire to make 45k a year in HR or something. Picking a more lucrative major obviously would be nice, but unfortunately the 'soft' studies just happen in line with my interests and abilities.

Would having hand tattoos keep me from becoming a lawyer?

Originally Posted by Magician

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Would having hand tattoos keep me from becoming a lawyer?

As a Magician, can't you make em disappear?

Originally Posted by yerfdog

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But isn't this extremely variable to the point that it's impossible to generalize? I mean like some are on BigLaw levels and others are like equivalent to a journeyman electrician?

This is also true. It's hard to generalize, and there are lots of independent or specific reasons.

Metrostyles just posted another thread about entrepreneurship. Many post-BigLaw careers are entrepreneurial legal careers. Some are for 3rd year associates, others are 20-year partners quitting to open their own shop or become patent trolls.