The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    But it is, that's what you need to grasp. Not everyone will agree with you, you need to grasp that as well.
     


  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    That the same sort of embellishment, say perlage, can be executed to varying degrees of quality is not an opinion. It is fact. You need to understand that. Hence, more embellishment does not make something better embellished.

    It is similarly not an opinion that not all hand-stitching is created equal, and more hand-stitching does not necessarily mean something is made better or took more time to make.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013


  3. marblehouse

    marblehouse Senior member

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    Foo,

    I agree with you on a lot of these points, but there is something that is being lost. More embellishment does imply a more labor intensive construction. More hand-stitching does necessarily imply more time - unless you are implying that the laborers are more skilled and can do more work in less time - that they are better craftsmen in one sense.

    There is a distinction between finishing for purposeful vs. aesthetic reasons. I may agree with you in deciding that some of Lange's finishing is of the less authentic/desirable/valuable variety - but this is a personal judgement.

    Criticizing the lack of purpose or necessity in embellishment and then praising it done "properly" in the next breath ins't very consistent or logical.
     


  4. AriGold

    AriGold Senior member

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    I'm liking this:

    Tag Heuer, 50th Anniversary Jack Heuer Carrera 1887:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     


  5. tricky

    tricky Senior member

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    I upgraded to this medium croc from Stowa when I purchased mine. It's held up well.

    [​IMG]
     


  6. ThinkDerm

    ThinkDerm Senior member

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    what is your company's ebay site?
     


  7. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    Long post incoming:

    Guys, mafoofan has a lot to offer this thread - he has a good breadth and depth of knowledge, which means that unlike some other posters it is at the very least potentially instructive to think about why he has arrived at the conclusions he has.

    That said, he (like me, heh) does sometimes come across as a little brusque, so I propose that we all try to focus on the actual content in his posts, rather than the manner it is conveyed... (this applies to me too. :alien: )


    What do you mean by "greater hand-finishing?" Again, there is a difference between the degree of embellishment, and the quality of finish. In terms of embellishment, IWC movements don't really register. They have always verged on a more serious, engineered approach. So, superficial anglage is not to be seen (such as on plates).

    I apologise in advance if you already know any of the following; do not take this as me patronising you:

    Yes, anglage has broad cosmetic appeal when done well, but there is a genuine practical reason for its presence. The original intention of anglage was to reduce the amount of square edges on watch parts so that 1. edges would be less likely to be damaged during servicing (a square edge is more susceptible to accidental damage than a rounded one), and 2. you essentially guarantee that the edges are free of burrs or other debris left over from their original make. Another reason which I have heard but am not totally convinced of is that it indirectly testifies to the quality of the metal used as only quality metal can take a good polish.

    Taking all the above into consideration, their presence on large fixed parts like bridges, plates makes perfect sense to me. To use an example you may be familiar with, the IWC Jubilee Portuguese had all large fixed parts anglaged beautifully.

    With regards to anglage on gear teeth - I was once told by a Piaget watchmaker that thinner movements are subject to a miniscule amount of flex with shocks, and that beveling compensates for that to a degree. That said, I agree that "excessive" anglage on gear teeth will affect their precision as a consequence to the potentially increased amount of play between gear teeth.

    If you were however referring to the profile of the gear teeth (I do not think you were), cycloidal gear teeth have always been traditional in watches. Your IWC, my JLC, Dino's Cartier - they all carry cycloid gears.

    For another “frippery” you mention, the original intention of Cotes de Geneve/perlage was to provide a surface texture to flat bits of the movement that served to trap runaway oil, along with whatever debris it carried - burrs, dust, etc. Hence their presence, while arguably more conventionally aesthetically pleasing, has a sober mechanical reason as well. I do agree that there is well done/poorly done examples of both (c.f. Rolex), and that one should not equate their presence automatically with "better watch movement". Referring to the example I mentioned earlier, the IWC Jubilee Portuguese has both copious perlage and CdG-ing.

    The original intention of blued screws is a little more nebulous to me. From what I have been able to gather it's either 1. just for looks, or 2. a flourish to demonstrate the superior polishing on the screw head. There is a possibility that the latter reason is apocryphal. That said I do not have any preference for/against as I am not against adornment for adornment's sake - which is not the same as adornment covering up for or distracting from suboptimal engineering choices. To use the same example again, IWC's Jubilee Portuguese had no blued screws because there is no tradition of bluing screws in IWC's history, or more specifically in the specific pocketwatches that provided the inspiration for the Jubilee, This makes perfect sense to me. Old Lange on the other hand, had such a tradition, and I do not begrudge new Lange for doing so and citing tradition as a reason.


    As for screwed gold chatons, I do not hold any particular preference for/against them. I agree that they as a technological development they are obsolete and unnecessary on modern mechanical watches, but if you adopt that frame of mind aren’t mechanical watches obsolete as well, with excellence within the mechanical watch world akin to winning the Special Olympics? Or another more PC example: it’s like handstitching on shirts - obsolete as we have machine stitching now, which is faster/easier to do well, always finer, and finally at least as secure, but handstitching is still “nice” to have when done well.

    You’ve repeated the allegation that new Lange is the only company to do screwed gold chatons over and over - there are a few companies aside from new Lange that do screwed chatons, so it’s not a phenomenon specific to new Lange.


    Yikes, I knew I should have appended a :stirpot: or a :tounge: after that line, because it was actually meant to be a bit of a tee hee wink wink nod nod comment, not some serious puritanical indictment of IWC wearers.

    I apologise for offending both of you, and to the silent others who may be offended at my lame attempt at humour! :embar:



    I think I've addressed all the points in your original post, and shown how your proposition was without basis in reality. You would be a more useful contributor to this thread if you at least owned your mistakes.



    Popularity has nothing to do with intrinsic, objective, quality and that I think that is what many are reacting against – that IWC has taken or is appearing to take the fastest shortcut to mass popularity. It’s like the kid who everyone knows is brilliant cheating in an exam as opposed to studying – all the more regrettable given he actually has the tools to make it without the shortcut.



    I think this depends on the particular Patek and the particular new Lange. Pateks as you are well aware have different levels of finishing, and Lange finishing while qualitatively different (“louder”) than Patek are quantitatively superior to other examples of “loud” finishing, such as say Dornblueth or GO; within the alligator suit spectrum there are still better and worse made alligator suits.

    I suspect you are against “louder” finishes in general - which would be in line with your other preferences - so even if a Lange were to finished “as well” as a Patek it would still fall short in your estimation. That said, while I don’t subscribe to that POV, I don’t see anything wrong with that point of view as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013


  8. ahdaeeeee

    ahdaeeeee Well-Known Member

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    A p0rn thread which has so much dialogue... Guess this is the climax.


    Just saw the video on Hodinkee. Interesting piece, but I'm definitely saving up for an IWC Portuguese, has been on my wanted list for a year now...
     


  9. marvin100

    marvin100 Senior member

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    The false dichotomy you present stands in stark contrast to the gentlemanly behavior frequently advocated on this site.
     


  10. AriGold

    AriGold Senior member

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    Yeah it's freakin' sick piece. I already have a speedy, so the next watch will have to be something dressy, and I've had my eye on the portuguese forever. If I were in the market for another sports watch, I'd get the tag above if the price was right. Lately Tag has really impressed me, and given the pieces can be had on significant discount, I find it more and more appealing
     


  11. marvin100

    marvin100 Senior member

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    Thanks, apropos. Apology of course happily accepted. Always appreciate your knowledge, for what it's worth.
     


  12. ahdaeeeee

    ahdaeeeee Well-Known Member

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    I just fell in love with Portuguese ever since I saw it. I can always go for the cheaper Portofino, but apparently the difference between these 2 that Portuguese uses the IWC in house machine.

    And yes, Tag recent watches are pretty impressive, this one in particular impressed me the most, unfortunately I find the price tag to be a little unreasonable.. Anyhow it's the 300 SLR.

    [​IMG]

    The bronze color is just beautiful!

    [​IMG]

    And the orange leather at the back of the strap, just woah!
     


  13. Epaulet

    Epaulet Affiliate Vendor Affiliate Vendor

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    ^ I really dig the Portuguese too. I picked up this two-tone model last year, and it's one of my favorites.

    [​IMG]
     


  14. nttdocomo

    nttdocomo Senior member

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    Gorgeous IWC, Epaulet.
     


  15. no frills

    no frills Senior member

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    Hey there, Mike - great choice there. [​IMG]
     


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