Tell Me About Law School

[samblau]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

I personally find contract law interesting; as well as the UCC.

Jon.

I sepnt the last two days writing a trial memo all on Article 2...in fact thats the reason I need to take breaks to come post here!

 

[teddieriley]

Originally Posted by samblau

Law school is simply a pain **********.....you can get through reading horn books and never opening a text book if you are a logical person who can write. Knowing a subject cold for a three-hour BS exam is often times counter productive yet just one of those exams can potentially alter your future career path.

Law school "gunners" are a pain ********** and most of your profs wil be failed attorneys who couldn't handle the pressure of working and are now banking in off of unsuspecting 21 year olds or people going on their daddy's dime. A lot has been written about 1st year grads making $160k....its not right...but certainly no worse than half-wit profs making $100k+ for....here it comes....teaching 8 hours a week, the ABA max, usaully from lesson plans that will not change for the next decade (however the book they will undoubtedly co-author will be at editon 73 by the time you graduate). Many of your "friends" will feel free to use you in any way they can and people who you originally thought would fail out first year will wind up getting a better job than you because they knew the right hiring partner, were owed a favor or their lawyer spouse wrote their first-year brief to get them on to moot court/journal/law review etc. As for law school politics, the deans better hope that the ABA Prof. Responsibility rules continue to be waived for them.

Thats the bad. The good news is that SOME courses are intellectually stimulating. I recommend trying things out that you have no interest in just to see what they are like i.e. I loved food and drug law. You will meet SOME cool people...usually the ones that have o interest in law. You CAN make a difference i.e. volunteering at places that help poor defendants, single mothers etc. You MIGHT get the hang of it early, do well and get the $$$, athough that doesn't mean you will be happy.


I have the same advice for everyone, if you get in to a top 14 school go and pay the price if necessary. If you get in anywhere else go where you get the most $$$. Figure that your three years will wind up costing $200k when you are done. If you can stomache that than by all means knock yourself out. Work hard first year, thats pretty much all that matters, make sure you get on to a journal/moot court/law review no matter what it takes, make all the conections you can....basically do all the wonderful things that give lawyers the glowing reputation we have.

A little jaded are we, and you're not even practicing yet?

Law school is not that bad and can be rewarding if your expectations are realistic and you do the right things to get the job you're looking for.

 

[Earthmover]

Hi Huntsman, here's some thoughts I had:

- I agree with DarkNWorn's list for the most part, except #8, since I think it's the second year summer internship that will matter more in the aggregate. I know that for me, second year summer was when I first did a corporate law job (first year, I helped compile appellate/supreme court cases regarding criminal procedure for the Gtown Law Journal) and that has been where my career path went. I think a lot of first years do internships with courts or something that pays them decently, and that doesn't necessarily have bearing on the future. As for #10, we as a profession have many assholes, but there are enough exceptions to make it worthwhile.

- reading for classes isn't something that requires you to be fast, necessarily. At least in my experience, the first year courseload was 4 classes, each of which gave between 15-75 pages of caselaw per class (two class sessions per week) that simply required complete digestion; I don't think this is particularly unbearable, especially if you don't do detailed briefs of each class (I tried to, and it didn't work for me, so I stopped). And to be completely honest, class participation counts for extremely little in law school classes, so if grades are all you care about, you can simply start studying for the finals and blow off the class for the most part.

- I don't have a link to a 3-year curriculum, but here's mine. It's not super-typical, but it's typical enough (I was particularly interested in structural constitutional law and criminal procedure), at least at Georgetown:

Fall, Year 1:
Civil Procedure
Conlaw I - Federal System (structural constitution; not individual rights; best part was having Mark Tushnet, now at Harvard, as an instructor. He was intense and inspiring)
Legal Research and Writing
Property

Spring, Year 1:
Contracts
Criminal Justice (this is criminal procedure, not the details of criminal law. Federal, not local law)
Legal Research and Writing
Torts
International Law I (basic theory on international law, the world courts, regional laws such as EU, conflicts with US law, how International law is treated by US courts)

Fall, Year 2 (I get to decide from here, with one-semester writing requirement left):
Corporations
Criminal Law
Constitutional Law II (Individual rights, like the bill of rights, the 14th amendment, etc.)
Pro Seminar in Constitutional Theory (an intermediate course in modern constitutional theory, also with Tushnet. Fulfilled writing requirement -- had weekly 2-3 page reaction pieces and a 25-page paper. We read a book a week)

Spring, Year 2:
Advanced Constitutional Law Seminar (advanced level constitutional theory class; again, a book/article a week, 2-3 page weekly reaction piece and a 40-page paper)
Evidence (procedural class on admission and treatment of evidence in the federal courts; considered a must for any litigator)
Legislation (drafting of laws, statutory interpretation)
Negotiations Seminar
Professional Responsibility (this is a mandatory requirement on legal ethics)

Fall, Year 3:
Advanced Criminal Law Procedure
Commercial Law: Introduction to Secured Transactions and Payment Systems (covers UCC 3, 4, 8 and 9 on commercial paper and security matters, etc.)
International Law II (jurisdiction, conflicts of laws)
Tax I (Federal personal and business income tax law)

Spring, Year 3:
Securities Regulation (SEC litigation and other related matters)
Tax II (M&A and transactional tax issues; considered one of the hardest classes in most law schools, along with Federal Courts)
Federal White Collar Crime


If you want to do IP, you'd replace some of the classes with intro to IP, then specific classes in Copyright/Trademarks, Patents, and other related items. If you want to do Patent Prosecution (which is probably the most in-demand legal field currently, and seems to me more interesting than most other kinds of law), then I'd strongly advise taking Evidence and some advanced civil procedure.

Anyway, hope that was somewhat helpful; I'm a 2005 graduate, so I think it reflects the kinds of classes most people take these days. Feel free to ask follow-up questions.

 

[samblau]

Originally Posted by teddieriley

A little jaded are we, and you're not even practicing yet?

Law school is not that bad and can be rewarding if your expectations are realistic and you do the right things to get the job you're looking for.

I am practicing, specifically in the field of construction law. I worked as a paralegal before law school and worked at two law firms during law school while going full time 2 days and three nights a week in addition to doing some "work" on eBay.

In my mind I was realistic...I saw the expenses, I saw the economy and I saw the job prosepcts. Yes, I was fortunate to a degree, I took the best job I could get and freely admit that without the burden of loan payments and NYC expenses most people could support a family on my salary (not BigLaw) not to mention that my lifetime salary cap is a lot higher because I went to school. On that same note I also never thought I would be working in construction law which is more of a business than a legal practice. Law schools are hurting the practice by setting a precedent that big firm life is not a possibility but rather a goal and pretty much the end all if you have $300k in student loans. I live the way i do now because I have worked and I have saved and even with that degree of foresight I still cannot believe how hard it is to get by. I cringe every time I see a group of 1st years going out, spending NY rents only to find out that their standard of living goes down after school ends. Law school is a business decision...not fun and games...I didn't need clubs and pizza parties, I needed a legal education and now that I am practicing I am quickly learning that I got something far different. While the chosen few went on to moot court and learned substantive skills the bulk of us did not do well enough first year to get an OCI (on-campus interview job) and wound up phoning it in 2nd-3rd year. My GPA those years was about a 3.5, I got an award in International Environmental Law (which I truly enjoyed).....if I did that first year maybe I'd be singing a different tune...the fact that I would have been better off reading Emanuel's or doing BarBri lectures instead of my class work is a bit hard to swallow in retrospect. The fact that I have 2 years experience in securities law and worked in a bank but couldn't sniff an interview even with very good grades in Corps and Sec Reg is mind-boggling to me. The fact that I wrote a law review article that can't get published because I was a student when I wrote is upsetting. It is not the adversity in and of itself I have an issue with but rather that the adversity is for all of the wrong reasons. Like billable hours so much of what I see is ineffective and what hurts the most is seeing qualified people get beat down before they turn 30 or worse yet hearing the people who have made it to the top moaning about how much they hate it. Yes, I am very green but having now dedicated 5 years of my life to this pursuit I beleive that 5 years of employment might have been a better career move and saved me in excess of $100k.

 

[JBZ]

^^^I say this with all sincerity and as a fellow lawyer. You may want to think about doing something else with your life.

 

[topbroker]

Although I have worked as a paralegal, I could never convince myself to go to law school (and based on my undergraduate credentials and historical level of performance on standardized tests, I could have gone to an elite one). I just didn't want to soak my brain in that pan for the rest of my life.

I saw an interesting piece online a couple of months ago about starting legal salaries. The average nationally was around $80,000, but the distribution was not a bell curve. It was a double hump: a medium hump above $125,000 (top graduates of top schools) and a high hump between $40,000 and $50,000 (graduates with lower GPAs and/or from lesser schools). There was actually quite a trough in the $70,000-$100,000 starting pay range.

So being an average lawyer is not necessarily a much better fate than being average in any number of other disciplines; it is certainly not as remunerative as being an average doctor or dentist (despite popular perception to the contrary). In my observation, law is the most credentialist of all professions: the caliber of your law school. the grades you get, whether or not you make law review, the quality of your first summer internship -- these determine not only where you start out, but to a very large extent where you finish. You get on a track in the law, and once you do, it is very difficult to jump onto another track. There are great leaps and startling developments in business careers; few in law.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by topbroker

You get on a track in the law, and once you do, it is very difficult to jump onto another track. There are great leaps and startling developments in business careers; few in law.

I concur regarding the business aspect of this (I defer to the lawyers for the latter aspect). Business is wholly flexible and you have people in positions that never actually specialized in what they are doing.

Jon.

 

[solipsist]

Originally Posted by topbroker

I saw an interesting piece online a couple of months ago about starting legal salaries. The average nationally was around $80,000, but the distribution was not a bell curve. It was a double hump: a medium hump above $125,000 (top graduates of top schools) and a high hump between $40,000 and $50,000 (graduates with lower GPAs and/or from lesser schools). There was actually quite a trough in the $70,000-$100,000 starting pay range.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article...780835602.html

 

[Renault78law]

Law school is reading, analysis and writing. As other have mentioned, the first year, you get an overview of the most basic topics in the law, and you also take a writing course. After your first year, you can choose your which courses you want to take. Most people take courses that will be tested on the bar, others take courses based on interest or they follow their favorite professors.

Social life in law school is an interesting animal. You share your schedule with all the other students in your section, so you can get to know everyone pretty well. This is the reason many say law school is like high school. Given the student body, I'd say it was worse than high school.

Law firms generally hire twice a year, in the fall and spring, for summer associate positions. Fall is when the bigger firms will come on campus to interview. As a first year, your grades wouldn't have come out yet, so you'll have to rely on your charm to get a paying job. Most first year law students don't get a paid job their first summer: externships with judges, pro bono volunteer work and research assistants with professors are common alternatives.

As an attorney (I'm speaking generally here, not specific to patent) in addition to your reading, analysis and writing skills that you developed in law school, you'll need to learn how to research. I think this is the most frustrating thing as a working attorney. Law school is generally closed universe, they provide the cases that you need to read. Associates have to find them, and if you're not good at it, it is very time consuming. Also, at a law firm, you have to bill your time. This leads to unhappiness for a lot of people, because you often find that you're either too busy or have nothing to do.

I also note that you can pass the patent bar without going to law school. If you want to draft patents, this might not be a bad way to get your feet wet.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by Renault78law

I also note that you can pass the patent bar without going to law school. If you want to draft patents, this might not be a bad way to get your feet wet.

Is it me or does that sound like an insanely monotonous job?

Jon.

 

[teddieriley]

Samblau - not sure if you still are in NYC, but I can see the difficulties a legal education in NYC can pose, but that does not speak to the law school experience throughout the rest of the country. But just like any profession, there is a bit of luck involved where you end up. I'm sure that is the case with me. I'm sorry the chips didn't fall exactly where you wanted them to.

 

[kwilkinson]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Is it me or does that sound like an insanely monotonous job?

Jon.

Is there any job that isn't at least partially monotonous?

 

[FLMountainMan]

Originally Posted by JBZ

^^^I say this with all sincerity and as a fellow lawyer. You may want to think about doing something else with your life.

THIS. The number of law schools has increased drastically over the last decade and there is a glut of young attorneys now. Law school is very demanding - you can't pull the "show up three times and ace the class" **** you did in undergrad. I graduated almost a year ago and was lucky enough to already have a career in lobbying and government, so I'm really not an attorney.

Do not go to law school part-time. Unless you work at a law school, it is an inherently flawed concept.

I think the greatest thing I got from the experience is the way it teaches you to think. You will have an advantage in most arguments and disputes because law school (at least mine, which was very litigation and argument focused) teaches you how to identify the real source of conflict. It's really cool.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by Huntsman

Lately I've spent a lot of time working with our corporate IP lawyer on my patents, and in speaking with him have become interested in IP law to the extent that I am seriously considering it as a possibility for my future career. I like the idea of being able to use my BSME degree and knowledge of engineering in a way that I wouldn't if I went MBA and into a pure business or finance position. Law would almost certainly put me in a better financial position than continuing in the engineering track with an M. Eng degree and possibly getting into an engineering management job in a decade or so. I would also be free of getting that M. Eng, which will be a three year misery that I have been dreading.

Of course I'm going to do much research and if I go this way it will be a year to 18 mos. out. But I am looking for some information about law school (and to a lesser extent life as a lawyer) - what should I be thinking about, are there any special admissions pitfalls, can you ever get any funding, what schools would you recommend, and the great question, what do you now know that you wish you knew? Certainly any other wisdom you wish to pass along I am happy to hear.

The only thing I do know is that the LSAT will determine my fate.

Lay it on me, gents.

I'll try not to repeat too much of what others have said -- but frankly I got tired of reading the longer posts and stopped halfway through.

Darkworm

seems to have covered a lot. (By the way, keep in mind that I'm about 15 years removed from law school, so my perspective may be a bit out of date. On the other hand, I've had some time to find my professional footing and gain some perspective that maybe some of the younger folks here have not. So, to paraphrase Robbie Robertson, take what you find useful and leave the rest.)
LSAT does count for a lot, along with grades. No news there. I'm not really aware of any other really important admissions pitfalls or tricks.
I think you're well-served going in with some substantive knowledge in another field, which you will be supplementing with legal knowledge and a degree. My sense is that people who come in with that sort of focus have an easier time of it than those who (like myself, to a certian extent) kind of drift into it because they can't think of anything better to do with their liberal arts degree.
My sense is that funding, at least if you're willing to take on loans, is available. While I was in school, loans were relatively easy to get. To a certain extent there are also fellowships, scholarships, and the like, but they tend to be relatively rare compared to their prevalence for undergrads.
As far as schools, that's tough to say. Do you have geographic limitations? Without getting too personal, do you have a shooting (pun intended) chance at getting into one of the 15-20 schools that tout themselves as "top 10"? I can't really speak to the market for in-house lawyers, but in terms of getting your first law school job, having gone to a school with a high "prestige" factor is a big help.

Originally Posted by DarkNWorn

A few thoughts:

1. IP lawyers are in great demand. IP litigation is huge, and growing.
2. Law school is completely different from the other disciplines.
3. There's a lot of reading.
4. There's a lot of writing.
5. The reading and writing are boring as hell, unless you're interested in the subject.
6. Law school politics will suck the life out of you. Stay out of it.
7. First year is the most important year.
8. First year's summer internship will largely influence your career path.
9. You will become very specilized after law school is done with you.
10. There's a reason why people think lawyers are assholes--mainly because we are.
1. True, but be careful of getting caught up in this. With all due respect to DW, those with a relatively short time in the profession (and/or law school) can get very caught up in identifying the wave of the future. If you're interested in IP work, that's what should drive you. If you're good at it, there will always be work. But you can't assume that what looks "hot" and "growing" now will really be a boom area by the time you graduate and start working. I've seen environmental law, dot-com IPO stuff, bankruptcy, and god knows what else have their time in the sun, and then drop off. (And I've been practicing for 14 years, not 40, so these cycles can be relatively brief.)
2. I guess so. I didn't find it all that much different from undergrad in terms of the type of work. 3 & 4 are definitely true, although in my experience it was heavier on reading than writing (at least as compared to being an undergraduate English major). More than anything else, law school is about absorbing and synthesizing large amounts of (mostly) written information, and being able to develop your own internal system of organizing and understanding it.
5. This varies. Certainly some of it is dreadfully boring. (But then again, maybe you didn't have to read Proust as an undergrad.) Some can be interesting. One of the real keys to law school, in my opinion, is to find some way to make each class interesting for yourself.
6. Very true.
7. Generally true.
8. Not in my experience, but then f*cked around my first summer. I got a good tan out of it, if nothing else.
9. Sort of, depends on your career path. I'm specialized in the sense that I now know quite a bit about litigation and bupkis about, say, estate planning. But beyond that, I've always resisted getting over-specialized, and I've seen others do the same. I think it's easier for litigators to remain relative "generalists" than for transactional lawyers.
10. I guess. I know a lot of us like to half-serious embrace all the negative stereotypes. But some of the coolest, smartest, kindest, most idealistic people I know are lawyers. There are tons of asshole lawyers. I also know plenty of asshole musicians, artists, doctors, retail clerks, bankers, and real estate folks. Certainly being in a relatively high-stress profession can bring out the worst in people at times. But it's largely a matter of finding and associating with people you like and share values with, as I imagine it is in any profession.

Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo

just out of curiosity, can you give an example of this "boring as hell, unless" kind of material? I've often wondered what the day-in-day out of Law school workload is, academically. I always just kinda imagined you all read the Constitution over and over, read some SCOTUS decisions, a little philosophy in there, and then a bunch of Law & Order scripts or something.

Actually, maybe this'll be easier: Hey current Law School guys reading this thread, what is it you should be reading right now?
Depends. You aren't that far off. But different subject areas can be different. Some are very driven by detailed regulatory schemes -- think the IRS Code, for instance. In such areas you spend a lot of time learning the structure of the underlying legal framework, plus some time considering the philosophical or policy underpinnings of that system. In other course, it's more along the lines you described: reading the historical case law, trying to understand the key themes or considerations that have driven the development of that case law, and thinking about the likely direction of its future development and potential application to various factual scenarios.

Originally Posted by Huntsman

This is good stuff. Reading, analysis, and writing are things that I love (and I read absurdly fast, though I admit 1k pages/week is scary), whereas I hate doing partial differential equations and numerical methods. So even a comparable workload is ok if I don't hate it all the time.



I know what you mean. This is what I expect for three years in M.E.

Are there any opportunities for electives outside of the law? While we're at it, does anyone have a link to a 3-years' worth of curriculum scope and sequence?

~ Huntsman

Sounds like you're well-situated. As I said above, being able to absorb and synthesize large amounts of information is a very important skill for law school. The availability of non-law electives will vary by school, but I think such opportunities generally exist. (I know they did at Boalt when I was there.) Many schools also have joint degree programs with other institutions that would allow you to bring in classes from other fields. For example, I know people I was in school with had joint JD/MBA programs, joint JD/Government (not sure of the exact title) programs with the Fletcher School, joint JD/Social Policy, Jurisprudence programs (JD + an extra helping of philosphy, more or less), etc.

 

[teddieriley]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Is it me or does that sound like an insanely monotonous job?

Jon.

You are exposed to a wide array of ideas and inventions in a certain technology, you're required to pick the inventor's brain to understand what it is he/she wants to protect, and you argue with the Patent Office why your client should get the protection. This can even extend to IP portfolio management where you are advising clients regarding IP strategy and ways to compete in the marketplace. Granted, it takes a certain personality to do this sort of job, but the same thing can be said about any profession. If you don't want to litigate and deal with corporate transactions, I don't see how this is boring or monotonous for someone who likes patent law. If you don't care for the practice area, of course it would suck.