Random Fashion Thoughts (Part 3: Style farmer strikes back) - our general discussion thread

[LA Guy]

Good talk Fok. I didn't really know much about the NYC charter school thing so I read up on it a bit. I can understand why Carranza's statements were so inflammatory, and clearly the inequities of NYC won't be solved by getting rid of a single test, but i gotta say though, I felt deeply embarrassed to see asian activists protesting a proposal to *integrate schools* with signs quoting MLK and saying "end racism" smh. What a time to be alive.

I didn't know about the SHSAT and starting googling around for more info on it. It hasn't been very robustly studied as far as I can tell, but I immediately found a paper that suggested the test isn't a particularly rigorous test. Apparently a significant plurality of students are admitted with scores that are statistically insignificant from those just below the cutoff line...anywhere from a third to half of students admitted to these schools score less than 20 points above the cutoff, which is within the standard error of measurement of the test. I don't know what the way forward here is but obviously this test should have been more carefully scrutinized before being made the sole admission criteria to these sxhools. Similar to how the SAT's predictive power is enhanced when considered alongside GPA, the SHSAT is substantially more robust when considered with achievement test results and middle school GPA, but it is weakest in predicting freshman gpa *at the cutoff point for elite school admission*. THAT SEEMS LIKE A BIG PROBLEM FOR THE SOLE CRITERIA OF ADMISSION.

I dunno. My tentative, half-baked, 30 mins opinion would be that perhaps moving away from 100% reliance on the SHSAT is bad for asians, but it also seems to be a pretty ****** and unfair test that cannot meaningfully differentiate those who get accepted and rejected from the school that, at the very least, deserves careful scrutiny in its design. In that case, it might be more fair to students overall to consider additional, or altogether different, criteria. At the very least, concerns that moving away from the SHSAT would inevitably worsen the quality of the student body seem unfounded, if the SHSAT is actually *not the best predictor of academic talent.

The SHSAT and and of itself may not be the best indicator of merit, but the proposed changes are silly, and the stated justifications for the changes are about as blatantly racist as you can get. Also, that there is statistical variability in the test results, assuming that the test scores within various racial groups are normally distributed, (not a bad assumption), would be a moot point, as it wouldn't change the overall makeup of these schools significantly.

Frankly, knowing the practicality of Chinese people, in particular, I could see a shift in the makeup of schools, as Chinese parents look to enroll their children in schools with a lower Chinese population, so that their children have a better shot at that top 7%. The changes as suggested, imo, will nearly certainly have unintended consequences.

I think that a lot of people don't quite understand the academic preparation that first generation Asian immigrant kids undergo. It's really not that different from rigorous athletic training. If you understand the amount of familial resources that has gone into the preparation of these children, and the importance that these families place on entry into these elite schools, it might be easier to understand the resentment of many Asian Americans to these policy changes. This, combined with memories of fairly recent clashes between black and Asian communities buttressed against each other (anyone remember the videos of African American rioters looting Asian owned stores during the Rodney King riots in South (then South Central) LA?), feeds easily and naturally into the ant-affirmative action narrative of the right. Basically, the left has walked into the trap set by the right and is pitting minorities against each other.

@Benesyed I think the premise that diversity is a good in and of itself, especially at elite institutions of *any* kind, is ridiculous, counter to meritocratic ideals, and ime, has the opposite effect that affirmative action is supposed to have. If the population of minority students perform worse than non-minority (specifically, non-black and non-Latino students) students, that simply reinforces biases about those minorities and creates justifiable resentment. I think that to consider a student who has overcome more to reach the same level of achievement, (and this could include considerations of race, class, disabilities, and so on) all quantitative metrics being equal, can be justified.

I almost bought the Air Presto variation, because it was on sale and at one point that was my grail. But then I remembered they're wholly impractical and don't look great with age.

Also, they're sized for concubines (was that racist).

I actually really like how they look all beat up. I have the MIP-8s from a few years ago and man, I like the way they look on. Also, bro, a size 6 fits my size 10.5-11 foot, and they also have a size 7, which fits like a size 11.5. How big are your feet, Sasquatch?

 

[King Calder]

Fok I think I've been pretty polite up until now but I literally have a Chinese mother and I said I'm half asian so where the **** do you get off by saying to me "a lot of people don't quite understand the academic preparation that first generation Asian immigrant kids undergo" -- ***** WHAT I am still shell-shocked from living through it all: I was dragged to an SAT prep course in an Indian temple 90 minutes away from my house every weekend at 6:30 AM for two years *in middle school* because my family was so obsessed with college prep. I took every available official College Board SAT practice test money could buy. And yet here I am, a product of that toxic ass culture saying hey maybe there's a more just and equitable way we can do things. Funny enough, my mom now agrees with me too.

Ugh, whatever man. You sound just like Charles Murray at this point, honestly.

 

[whorishconsumer]

I actually really like how they look all beat up. I have the MIP-8s from a few years ago and man, I like the way they look on. Also, bro, a size 6 fits my size 10.5-11 foot, and they also have a size 7, which fits like a size 11.5. How big are your feet, Sasquatch?

Bigger than 11.5, usually.

I had a misadventure purchasing a pair of HS loafers in 6, wherein I stubbornly refused to accept defeat, had them stretched and all of that, but finally had to relinquish them to B&S for 1/3 the price. It scarred me.

However, now, and because of your previous comment, I have purchased the MIP 12's in 7. Congratulations, Fok, you did it again. You're an influencer, but without the IG feed and with less avocado toast.

 

[nahneun]

Fok I think I've been pretty polite up until now but I literally have a Chinese mother and I said I'm half asian so where the **** do you get off by saying to me "a lot of people don't quite understand the academic preparation that first generation Asian immigrant kids undergo" -- ***** WHAT I am still shell-shocked from living through it all: I was dragged to an SAT prep course in an Indian temple 90 minutes away from my house every weekend at 6:30 AM for two years *in middle school* because my family was so obsessed with college prep. I took every available official College Board SAT practice test money could buy. And yet here I am, a product of that toxic ass culture saying hey maybe there's a more just and equitable way we can do things. Funny enough, my mom now agrees with me too.

Ugh, whatever man. You sound just like Charles Murray at this point, honestly.

i woke up at 5 to go to school by 8 because i got into an elite high school from 7th grade to 12th grade. my mother woke up every morning with me to make me breakfast. i'm not discounting your experience, but at the same time, to me, it's laughable that going to school on the weekend is all you're complaining about. what is a free weekend like anyway when you're a kid? korean school, sunday school, etc. dictated my entire childhood. ymmv. i didn't get home until 11 pm on a daily basis (yes, that includes weekends) because of extracurriculars and prep schools, where i slept anyway in front of all the cameras that were there to make sure the kids were studying, but because i went to an elite high school and was doing well on the practice exams, i got the bye. so really, your experience pales in comparison to what most lower middle class first generation asian families go through to try to provide the best opportunity for their children. yes, i'm gatekeeping, but this is fairly par for course for most new yorker first generation families. there are degrees of toxic confucianism, and honestly, you barely felt the brunt of it. so when i read your post, it's like reading about a white guy complaining about reverse racism. sorry, not sorry, but you really don't know the extent of the truth. there is a reason asians are angry about the lack of a great equalizer, especially when realistically, society puts extra pressure on asian overperformance and overachievement.

 

[dieworkwear]

 

[penanceroyaltea]

i woke up at 5 to go to school by 8 because i got into an elite high school from 7th grade to 12th grade. my mother woke up every morning with me to make me breakfast. i'm not discounting your experience, but at the same time, to me, it's laughable that going to school on the weekend is all you're complaining about. what is a free weekend like anyway when you're a kid? korean school, sunday school, etc. dictated my entire childhood. ymmv. i didn't get home until 11 pm on a daily basis (yes, that includes weekends) because of extracurriculars and prep schools, where i slept anyway in front of all the cameras that were there to make sure the kids were studying, but because i went to an elite high school and was doing well on the practice exams, i got the bye. so really, your experience pales in comparison to what most lower middle class first generation asian families go through to try to provide the best opportunity for their children. yes, i'm gatekeeping, but this is fairly par for course for most new yorker first generation families. there are degrees of toxic confucianism, and honestly, you barely felt the brunt of it. so when i read your post, it's like reading about a white guy complaining about reverse racism. sorry, not sorry, but you really don't know the extent of the truth. there is a reason asians are angry about the lack of a great equalizer, especially when realistically, society puts extra pressure on asian overperformance and overachievement.

Ooo so this is toxic Confucianism...

 

[nahneun]

Ooo so this is toxic Confucianism...

you want to know what's really sad? when i went to korea after i graduated from college, i saw what my niece was going through as an elementary school kid, and she had it worse than i did. her pre-k younger sister was doing the exact same course as her older sister.

 

[King Calder]

@nahneun your life honestly doesn't sound too different from mine was, and I wasn't exactly going to provide a laundry list of grievances. Misery poker is a loser's game.

We don't even know if the SHSAT is a "great equalizer" since there's literally no research showing that it measures any innate aptitude whatsoever. It could simply be a test you can study for an do better on. It's the burden of the defenders of the SHSAT to prove it isn't that. All I was saying is that IF the goal of the SHSAT is to find the most academically proficient students, there is substantial reason to doubt the process as it exists currently does that in a fair way, and I'd encourage everyone with an interest in a fair process to consider that.

"Reverse racism" is an incoherent idea, fwiw. it's just racism either way.

 

[Spehsmonkey]

“You don’t know being Middle Eastern bc no Guantanamo.”

“You don’t know being Black bc no slavery.”

“You don’t know being Asian bc no sweatshop/railroad worker.”

 

[dieworkwear]

"You don't know being StyleFarmer bc no Ambrosi/ ToJ"

 

[Benesyed]

The SHSAT and and of itself may not be the best indicator of merit, but the proposed changes are silly, and the stated justifications for the changes are about as blatantly racist as you can get. Also, that there is statistical variability in the test results, assuming that the test scores within various racial groups are normally distributed, (not a bad assumption), would be a moot point, as it wouldn't change the overall makeup of these schools significantly.

Frankly, knowing the practicality of Chinese people, in particular, I could see a shift in the makeup of schools, as Chinese parents look to enroll their children in schools with a lower Chinese population, so that their children have a better shot at that top 7%. The changes as suggested, imo, will nearly certainly have unintended consequences. Also intellectual education is not the most important, the overall development as a moral person is. So just being really really good at tests is a small aspect of the bigger aspect of education and learning.

I think that a lot of people don't quite understand the academic preparation that first generation Asian immigrant kids undergo. It's really not that different from rigorous athletic training. If you understand the amount of familial resources that has gone into the preparation of these children, and the importance that these families place on entry into these elite schools, it might be easier to understand the resentment of many Asian Americans to these policy changes. This, combined with memories of fairly recent clashes between black and Asian communities buttressed against each other (anyone remember the videos of African American rioters looting Asian owned stores during the Rodney King riots in South (then South Central) LA?), feeds easily and naturally into the ant-affirmative action narrative of the right. Basically, the left has walked into the trap set by the right and is pitting minorities against each other.

@Benesyed I think the premise that diversity is a good in and of itself, especially at elite institutions of *any* kind, is ridiculous, counter to meritocratic ideals, and ime, has the opposite effect that affirmative action is supposed to have. If the population of minority students perform worse than non-minority (specifically, non-black and non-Latino students) students, that simply reinforces biases about those minorities and creates justifiable resentment. I think that to consider a student who has overcome more to reach the same level of achievement, (and this could include considerations of race, class, disabilities, and so on) all quantitative metrics being equal, can be justified.


I actually really like how they look all beat up. I have the MIP-8s from a few years ago and man, I like the way they look on. Also, bro, a size 6 fits my size 10.5-11 foot, and they also have a size 7, which fits like a size 11.5. How big are your feet, Sasquatch?

I actually think a meritocracy is undesirable and creates much greater resentment since over generations resources tend to amplify differences as they accrue in one family or geography. Furthermore I do think cultural diversity is an intrinsic good in any setting. All of these things are contra efficiency but I think that's good in and of itself. IneffeciencI and idleness are probably some of the greatest joys of being human.


I'm any case I was working under the theoretical that there is a distinct performance difference in the general population.

 

[King Calder]

Meritocracy is an impossibility in american society, though a 100% inheritance tax might be one step towards actually achieving it. As James Flynn writes:

(1) Allocating rewards irrespective of merit is a prerequisite for meritocracy, otherwise environments cannot be equalized (2) allocating rewards according to merit is a prerequisite for meritocracy, otherwise people cannot be stratified by wealth and status (3) therefore a class-stratified meritocracy is impossible.

 

[Spehsmonkey]

"You don't know being StyleFarmer bc no Ambrosi/ ToJ"

“You don’t know being North Korean bc no platform shoes and 50” hems.”

 

[nahneun]

@nahneun your life honestly doesn't sound too different from mine was, and I wasn't exactly going to provide a laundry list of grievances. Misery poker is a loser's game.

We don't even know if the SHSAT is a "great equalizer" since there's literally no research showing that it measures any innate aptitude whatsoever. It could simply be a test you can study for an do better on. It's the burden of the defenders of the SHSAT to prove it isn't that. All I was saying is that IF the goal of the SHSAT is to find the most academically proficient students, there is substantial reason to doubt the process as it exists currently does that in a fair way, and I'd encourage everyone with an interest in a fair process to consider that.

"Reverse racism" is an incoherent idea, fwiw. it's just racism either way.

that's a fair argument, but if it's simply a test that one could study to do better on, why is that effect not reproducible in other communities? frankly speaking, first generation asians are usually in the lowest economic spectrum, but are the highest performers on this exam. if, by your own argument, this is something that can be easily reproduced through preparation, why hasn't it been done? to be fair, asians as a whole have become far wealthier than when i was a student, so the socioeconomic landscape can have changed drastically, but i'm failing to see how exactly the 7% proposal is more egalitarian when it's more rife for potential gaming, especially when it's essentially a zoning issue by that point.

i don't want to conflate high school admissions with college admissions. colleges and universities are profit maximizing institutions, regardless of what ideals people hold about higher education. there will never be equality where money is involved in decision making. why not have high schools at least be a product of meritocracy to even the playing field? again, it's simply a matter of passing a test, and if it's an issue of preparation, at least everyone is being held to the same standard. the people with the fewest resources consistently produce the highest results. is this culturally intrinsic or genetically intrinsic? there's zero doubt in my mind it's the former.

 

[Benesyed]

My life was like that but we didn't have elite resources so we just were forced to sit and study. There definitely are benefits to that discipline, but it's also a terrible way to live. My life is much better now even though I work harder because it feels like I have more choice and autonomy. And my goals aren't just me getting a better grade for some theoretical self benefit of a slightly more douchey school. Now it's to help people either live or live a better life. It's a pretty awesome motivator.