Ongoing Bespoke Projects

[bry2000]

Is that why you’re no longer a customer, she didn’t like you cheating on her?

Haha, I was a Solito customer before becoming one of hers. She knows her USA hobbyist clients use multiple tailors.

 

[Royal_Airforce]

Have people noticed a difference in how the lapel rolls on an English jacket vs. an Italian jacket? From having browsed around, and seeing my own commissions, I feel like Italian jackets generally have a more expressive roll. It's less so on an English jacket.

I've asked cutters what goes into the break on their lapel. Sometimes I get a somewhat technical answer that I don't totally understand. Other times it's chalked up to the usual "quality of the coat maker and hand-sewing" argument. I'm curious if someone has heard more about this. Is there a difference in the canvas used or where it's placed?

From what I have, indeed the Italian tailorings generally tend to have more prominent lapel rolls than English ones.

Reasons I have deduced are follows:

1. On the one hand it’s fundamentally owing to the canvas used (light or heavy, springy or less so, which has less to do with it being Italian or English, or even making it vice versa), and the fabric (again, cut-agnostic). I have 2 pieces from a same tailor, who is know to cut a Florentine cut with slightly lighter structure than the likes of Liverano, and one of them (Fresco suit, so stands reasonably well; and in their older batch of canvas) had much more prominent lapel roll than the other (8oz LGB, so way softer; and in their new batch of canvas). It’s a combined result of the fabric and canvas.

2. On the other hand it’s down to the moulding and pressing, which again is more cut-agnostic. So is the hand-padding.

3. One of the cut-specific reasons I suspect is an aesthetic one: Most English tailors may not care about a prominent lapel roll just as much. Following the sculpture-like lines of a Sexton, for instance, it would make less sense to have a large and rounded lapel roll. Milanese tailors such as the few Caracenis (though Yuki Inoue is an exception - again evidencing that it may just be an aesthetic decision) have less lapel roll than Florentine or Neapolitan ones.

4. Finally a visually tricky one: Most English cut feature at least a visible belly on the lapel, so ceteris paribus, the lapel roll seems less pronounced than their Italian counterparts (esp. Florentine ones, where you have a straight lapel as if it were convex, deepening the impression of a lapel roll).

 

[PMA]

Have people noticed a difference in how the lapel rolls on an English jacket vs. an Italian jacket? From having browsed around, and seeing my own commissions, I feel like Italian jackets generally have a more expressive roll. It's less so on an English jacket.

I've asked cutters what goes into the break on their lapel. Sometimes I get a somewhat technical answer that I don't totally understand. Other times it's chalked up to the usual "quality of the coat maker and hand-sewing" argument. I'm curious if someone has heard more about this. Is there a difference in the canvas used or where it's placed?

It's a complicated answer. To make things simple...Italians generally use tropical weight canvas. Some use the same weights and blends as England tailors. English tailors, as well as my tailors in NY, sometimes add a layer of pocket cotton on the top of the canvas in the lapel and then pad stitch it so it is even stronger and always stays put. I know a tailor in Miami who puts a layer of tropical canvas on top of the body canvas and then TWO layers of pocket cotton and then pad stitches the lapels. It's pretty amazing and makes Michael Browne lapels look soft. It's all a matter a taste really. For some clients I make their lapels soft and others I build them up and make them stiff. I often to the latter for clients in Tropical climates because despite what people think, guys with $, want their clothes looking sharp and not casual in the office, even in Miami or Panama.

 

[Despos]

The layer or layers of pocketing on the lapel has no relevance to the roll of the lapel. We put one layer cut on the bias between the canvass and the body of the jacket to add body to the lapel and that’s all it does. Can think of four things that contribute to the roll of the lapel and how resilient the roll will be maintained.

How the cloth front is basted onto the canvass. Same principle as how you hold the canvass on the lapel when pad stitching. You want fullness in the canvass from the button upwards into the lapel. Have seen few tailors do this.

How you hold the canvass in relation to the cloth along the break line of the lapel. The cloth is taut and while the canvass is relaxed over the breakline. Not the best descriptor but the idea is the underside of the roll (the cloth) is shorter than the overlying canvass which creates the roll. Every tailor does this but some do it better than others.

How you baste the cloth facing to create the same layering effect ( short, longer, longer) to reinforce the fullness required to maintain the roll.

How the facing is basted and tack stitched into place. It has to follow and reinforce all the previous steps.

Every step and layer combine to create and maintain the lapel roll.

An added point is pressing. It has to be pressed in a way that fortifies the work done rather than neutralizing the effect of the procedures done

 

[dieworkwear]

The layer or layers of pocketing on the lapel has no relevance to the roll of the lapel. We put one layer cut on the bias between the canvass and the body of the jacket to add body to the lapel and that’s all it does. Can think of four things that contribute to the roll of the lapel and how resilient the roll will be maintained.

How the cloth front is basted onto the canvass. Same principle as how you hold the canvass on the lapel when pad stitching. You want fullness in the canvass from the button upwards into the lapel. Have seen few tailors do this.

How you hold the canvass in relation to the cloth along the break line of the lapel. The cloth is taut and while the canvass is relaxed over the breakline. Not the best descriptor but the idea is the underside of the roll (the cloth) is shorter than the overlying canvass which creates the roll. Every tailor does this but some do it better than others.

How you baste the cloth facing to create the same layering effect ( short, longer, longer) to reinforce the fullness required to maintain the roll.

How the facing is basted and tack stitched into place. It has to follow and reinforce all the previous steps.

Every step and layer combine to create and maintain the lapel roll.

An added point is pressing. It has to be pressed in a way that fortifies the work done rather than neutralizing the effect of the procedures done

This is similar to some of the explanations that I've heard from other tailors when I ask them this question, and is the kind of technical answer that I don't have the background to understand. I can picture it in my mind, but I don't know if I really understand what's at work.

Is it fair to say that this is going to be pretty inherent to the house style and not something you can specify? My impression is that this is determined by the materials used and the coat-makers behind the scenes. Or is there something you can specify that would result in a "fuller" roll?

 

[ericjens7]

It's a complicated answer. To make things simple...Italians generally use tropical weight canvas. Some use the same weights and blends as England tailors. English tailors, as well as my tailors in NY, sometimes add a layer of pocket cotton on the top of the canvas in the lapel and then pad stitch it so it is even stronger and always stays put. I know a tailor in Miami who puts a layer of tropical canvas on top of the body canvas and then TWO layers of pocket cotton and then pad stitches the lapels. It's pretty amazing and makes Michael Browne lapels look soft. It's all a matter a taste really. For some clients I make their lapels soft and others I build them up and make them stiff. I often to the latter for clients in Tropical climates because despite what people think, guys with $, want their clothes looking sharp and not casual in the office, even in Miami or Panama.

I am with Chris on this too. Adding the cotton pocketing cut on the bias does nothing to add or take away from the lapel roll. In fact, I as well as my Maestro in Italy only add the cotton when dealing with lighter weight cloth. This only gives the lapel a bit more strength that it would not otherwise have with such light weight cloth. The roll of the lapel is given by the steps (that I was taught from Chris) Chris describes. Most everyone (who is doing bespoke) hand pads the canvas. It is how the cloth is placed on the canvas and how the facing is added that gives the roll to the lapel. I will agree that I have noticed more expression on Italian coats than English. But that might be biased.

 

[Despos]

Reductionist, oversimplification of the principle;

Line 1 is the cloth body of the jacket
Line 2 is the canvass
Line 3 is the cloth lapel facing
Each line from point A to point B increases in length among the layers. This creates and maintains the roll.
This is created by the pad stitching process along the break line from the collar to the button and the basting of the lapel facing.
It is repeated from the button upwards along the lapel for 4-5 inches on the canvass and facing.
It's as simple as this. No magic.
Well, another factor could be how the collar is set and how the collar tension manifests in the the lapel roll. If the collar is tight and forces the lapel against the button, this could diminish the amount of roll. I like the lapel to roll about an inch above the button so it looks like its floating above the button. This frees the lapel to maintain a natural roll.
Derek, This could be a preference for you use how you select a tailor to work with; who makes a lapel roll that satisfies your aesthetic?

 

[Crispyj]

Update on my commission with Frank. Apparently he found out that the lambswool taupe had polyester blended into the fabric. He ? some pieces to make sure and told me to pick another fabric. Now the new fabric is this 14-15oz light taupe with a check pattern. What do y'all think? Another option was heritage fox flannel in navy blue. I wasn't going to pick some 24oz tweed...

 

[dieworkwear]

Update on my commission with Frank. Apparently he found out that the lambswool taupe had polyester blended into the fabric. He ? some pieces to make sure and told me to pick another fabric. Now the new fabric is this 14-15oz light taupe with a check pattern. What do y'all think? Another option was heritage fox flannel in navy blue. I wasn't going to pick some 24oz tweed...
View attachment 1364705

Personally don't like the tight twill weave or the orange stripes.

I have a mottled tan jacket with a cream window check pattern. I think with a fairly plain fabric like that, it's nice if you get more texture or mottling

 

[Despos]

Update on my commission with Frank. Apparently he found out that the lambswool taupe had polyester blended into the fabric. He ? some pieces to make sure and told me to pick another fabric. Now the new fabric is this 14-15oz light taupe with a check pattern. What do y'all think? Another option was heritage fox flannel in navy blue. I wasn't going to pick some 24oz tweed...
View attachment 1364705

Who was offended by the presence of poly, you or Frank?
Which of the 2 cloths do you like best?

 

[dieworkwear]

Reductionist, oversimplification of the principle; View attachment 1364662
Line 1 is the cloth body of the jacket
Line 2 is the canvass
Line 3 is the cloth lapel facing
Each line from point A to point B increases in length among the layers. This creates and maintains the roll.
This is created by the pad stitching process along the break line from the collar to the button and the basting of the lapel facing.
It is repeated from the button upwards along the lapel for 4-5 inches on the canvass and facing.
It's as simple as this. No magic.
Well, another factor could be how the collar is set and how the collar tension manifests in the the lapel roll. If the collar is tight and forces the lapel against the button, this could diminish the amount of roll. I like the lapel to roll about an inch above the button so it looks like its floating above the button. This frees the lapel to maintain a natural roll.
Derek, This could be a preference for you use how you select a tailor to work with; who makes a lapel roll that satisfies your aesthetic?

Thanks, Chris!

I really like the lapel roll on my Solito jackets, but he cuts a somewhat narrow shoulder and says it's a bad idea to extend it because of how the shoulder is constructed. Says there's not enough padding to support an extension. I like Steed as my default tailor, but they don't do a very big lapel roll. Will probably just stick with how each tailor decides to do their lapel.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Crispyj]

Who was offended by the presence of poly, you or Frank?
Which of the 2 cloths do you like best?

Frank got offended ? I did like the look of the other fabric, but it was too much of a mystery. Some customer sent him the fabric and I don't think it is worth the risk.

Personally don't like the tight twill weave or the orange stripes.

I have a mottled tan jacket with a cream window check pattern. I think with a fairly plain fabric like that, it's nice if you get more texture or mottling

The thing his he doesn't have much fabric in stock. All the other things he has are tweeds that I would never wear..

My last option would be I buy some of this from NMWA and send it to Frank.

 

[dieworkwear]

Frank got offended ? I did like the look of the other fabric, but it was too much of a mystery. Some customer sent him the fabric and I don't think it is worth the risk.



The thing his he doesn't have much fabric in stock. All the other things he has are tweeds that I would never wear..

My last option would be I buy some of this from NMWA and send it to Frank.

That NMWA Fox cloth is really nice. It's nice online, but even nicer in person and when made up into a jacket. I saw a coat made from the fabric and really dig it.

 

[Crispyj]

That NMWA Fox cloth is really nice. It's nice online, but even nicer in person and when made up into a jacket. I saw a coat made from the fabric and really dig it.

Then that might be my only option, other than that I'd wait a few weeks until Fox opens up again, which I might be really considering. The thing is my I Sarti Italiani jacket is also a green in a similar shade...

 

[UrbanComposition]

Frank got offended ? I did like the look of the other fabric, but it was too much of a mystery. Some customer sent him the fabric and I don't think it is worth the risk.



The thing his he doesn't have much fabric in stock. All the other things he has are tweeds that I would never wear..

My last option would be I buy some of this from NMWA and send it to Frank.

That is a fantastic cloth for a jacket. Salvo made that for a San Francisco customer.