Mod to Suedehead

Nigel Mann in "The Soul Stylists":

The first time I saw a Skinhead was when Chelsea came to play Leicester in 1968. Tons of them showed up. I was absolutely fascinated by their dress, their style. Within a week we all had our hair cropped and barbers had never been so busy. It's hard to convey just how different things were in the '60's and '70's. Fashion emanated from London and the further afield you lived the longer it took to reach you. In the very earliest stages The Look was pretty basic. Shirt jeans, Levi's or Wrangler and Wranglers faded were better but Levi's had that classic French seam that showed on the outside of your turn-ups.
The boots were originally ex-army issue, Cherry Reds and in the early days of the winter of '69, granddad vests and RAF greatcoats. But things moved on quickly.

Originally Posted by Alex Roest

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Nigel Mann in "The Soul Stylists":

The first time I saw a Skinhead was when Chelsea came to play Leicester in 1968. Tons of them showed up. I was absolutely fascinated by their dress, their style. Within a week we all had our hair cropped and barbers had never been so busy. It's hard to convey just how different things were in the '60's and '70's. Fashion emanated from London and the further afield you lived the longer it took to reach you. In the very earliest stages The Look was pretty basic. Shirt jeans, Levi's or Wrangler and Wranglers faded were better but Levi's had that classic French seam that showed on the outside of your turn-ups.
The boots were originally ex-army issue, Cherry Reds and in the early days of the winter of '69, granddad vests and RAF greatcoats. But things moved on quickly.

Don't do it Alex!

Originally Posted by bunty

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Don't do it Alex!

Sorry mate, here's a quote of mine from page 177 though:

Originally Posted by Alex Roest

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Could it be that some of the gear Jim Ferguson mentioned being worn during the winter of '68-'69 was actually just the local guys trying to copy the Chelsea skinheads immediately after that particular game? and that their interpretation of the look was perhaps a bit clumsy at times, no disrespect just a mere thought...

Another KR quote from TFoF:

Wolves were a significant level of time behind London, in terms of fashion. The Wolves fans were wearing denim Levi jackets and jeans, or Wranglers. They were wearing their tops with Wranglers, whereas, in London, Wranglers were nowhere. We went and got the train up there and I was wearing a Harrington jacket. I had short hair, with Sta-prest trousers, a button-down shirt. The Wolves fans were all wearing denim jackets, blue denim jeans, but they were Skinheads. They had short hair. It was just amazing. All the fans congregating outside Coventry station waiting, loads and loads and loads of young kids about 14, 15, 16, 17 and some older.

A few observations on my part:

The older guys from Harrow KR describes are basically what Jim Ferguson classes as 'Mod Conservative' types as in not pre-skinhead at all really I think.

The perfect example of pre-skinhead style, or rather Peanuts/Totters I've come across is that photo of the Smithies, very urban indeed.

The denim clad Bootboy type strikes me as just that i.e. not skinhead, strictly speaking.

Finally there's a good summary of what your actual hard mod (and we're talking '66) was all about, from one of my sources:

in every south London firm (I would hazard a guess the same applies all over working class London) there would be a few hard-core Mods, but, and here's the rub, local social mores and tribal taboos kept even these full-on Mods on the "safe" side of fashion. No blow-dried haircuts, loud garments, cissy shoes for us!

And in Manchester/Liverpool they had Flemings jeans http://www.flemingsjeansliverpool.com/ Funny how you went up a little and clothes adapts to the enviroment (in the most extreme cases sharpies in ozzie). Isn't it so that London had an advantage with Squire Shop, Village Gate and ivy influence might be stronger? Might be interesting to name the shops you all visited for your gear (for how far you can remember), for the book. Compare it to folk from other regions. Like the Leather Bombers that could be bought in Brixton (and Bristol apparently as well). You can chart a bit of influences to regions and such.

Originally Posted by Alex Roest

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Another KR quote from TFoF: Wolves were a significant level of time behind London, in terms of fashion. The Wolves fans were wearing denim Levi jackets and jeans, or Wranglers. They were wearing their tops with Wranglers, whereas, in London, Wranglers were nowhere. We went and got the train up there and I was wearing a Harrington jacket. I had short hair, with Sta-prest trousers, a button-down shirt. The Wolves fans were all wearing denim jackets, blue denim jeans, but they were Skinheads. They had short hair. It was just amazing. All the fans congregating outside Coventry station waiting, loads and loads and loads of young kids about 14, 15, 16, 17 and some older.
My first away game with Chelsea FC was West Bromwich Albion Away 68/69 Season their was no Skinheads at West Brom, The Girls was mad about us, It was the same all over England that season, The next year, 69/70 was different, I went to Wolves away, and their was Skinheads but just boots and jeans, I met the famous Wolverhampton Skinhead Girl Tina who was also a Chelsea Supporter that day. Outside London they was always 1 step to 3 steps behind... the further up North the more behind they was. Places like Liverpool and Manchester seemed to develop their own look, ie Jean Jackets and Baggie jeans with big turn ups. The thing for me Skinheads started in London and ended in London, Everywhere outside London they was behind and had a different look, We use to take the piss out of them, Sorry but thats how it was. We did not have to wear our Football colours , They knew we was London by our dress, I remember Everton Away 70/71 season, only about Sixty of us went up, we was all in Crombies, Hair now fairly long, The Scousers was still Skinheads in their Jean Jackets and baggie jeans, They was mad over our Crombies, some of our Lads had their Crombies steamed off them. Mind you they did not get mine

I wish there were more photos of skinheads on the football terraces in 1969/70...
If there were 1000's, that must have been some sight!...I can't find any pics of them
online anywhere, apart from the famous Danny Eccles footage.

Originally Posted by albion

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I wish there were more photos of skinheads on the football terraces in 1969/70...
If there were 1000's, that must have been some sight!...I can't find any pics of them
online anywhere, apart from the famous Danny Eccles footage.

Unfortunately (from our point of view) it was a phenomenon that football clubs were trying at best to play down and at worst to eradicate.

Interesting Posts.If I can just say that there was a difference about the conversations,we had.Mon. to Thurs., would be about Girls,Fashion etc.Fridays would be about the up and coming Game on Saturday.Sometimes the subject of the best place to "ambush" visiting Fans-especially the London ones.

Originally Posted by Get Smart

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here's a quote from an old 80s zine called White Revolution issue #1, interview with one of the heads of NF in England, I thought it interesting to see this point of view when asked about the goals of the National Front

"We would like to see a return to the smart dress and self pride of the early skinheads..."

My recollection of the 80s is that a quite a few NF skinheads looked very traditional, and you couldnt tell if not for some badges on his coat. But I dont care for either side, either strongly Antifa or NF, both have done nothing but polarize the skinhead scene.

I've seen a lot of the Nazi Skins in Australia. You seen the movie Romper Stomper? Well, that's based upon the Melbourne Boneheads, their firm in the early 1990s to be exact and that's exactly how they dressed in 1989. Who, our own firm, when I was living in Melbourne, had major clashes with 'em. We're talking many skirmishes over the course of a number of years. In the whole period of decades, I'd never seen a Bonehead dress smart, not ever. Might be different in the USA, but not here.

Now, we did consider ourselves anti-nazi, and this was long before the word SHARP ever became a household name in the movement. Because, fundamentally, we were listening to Black music and they would attack -us- for it. Not the other way around. Our firm, had a few Maori's in it too who the Nazi's couldn't stand because they were black. Eventually, we got organised, fought back, as we got sick to death of the BS. So the whole pro-anti-nazi thing, was polarised, because of attacks upon traditional skins by the nazi lot. Its really that simple. Later on, as the 1990s wore on, it became identified with SHARP and these days, I hear the word Anti-fa. Never heard that term until the 2000s so perhaps its a more recent thing (or possibly a yank thing?). So blaming the anti-nazi lot, for defending themselves (who basically identified themselves as Traditional Skinheads, me included) is a bit rich. I'm not sure how it is in the USA, but that's how it happened to promulgate in Oz as well as Glasgow and elsewhere in Britain I'm sure of it. Its NOT that we were trying to be ANTI-NAZI, its that we were fighting back, against attacks on our own Firms. Our patience wore out and we got stuck in, laid the boot in and fought back in good ole' fashioned skinhead aggro style.

You might not care about politics, but when you got a nazi bonehead, swinging a baseball bat at ya for listening to ska and other black music, you either do something, or get your head smashed in. Politics or no. If we could live back in the 1960s, when the war against Hitler and Japan, was in the back of everyone's mind, you wouldn't have to put up with it. But in the 1980s and 90s, you did and you either fought back, or got your head caved in. We, fought for the right to listen to our ska, our reggae, our rocksteady and our northern soul. As luck would have it, we lost some battles, we won some but in the end, the movement is better for it because today, most people who still identify themselves as skinheads, are true to the roots of the movement.

^^ sounds similar to US in the later 80s-early 90s

when I first got into it, mid 80s, it was a time when the whole "skinheads are skinheads" mentality still existed. the late 80s was when the scene got polarized here, lot of it due to how the media started to present skinheads, as nazi thugs (which some were). so you had to take a stand on one side or the other, always looking behind your back going to the record store taking care not to get jumped. I remember skinheads at gigs basically making the rounds to suss out who was there, basically forming "alliances" so you knew who might have your back if a brawl broke out due to warring factions.

even SHARP, as much as I'm not a fan of, when marcus first started it, his intentions were good. Like you said, it was about skinheads taking a stand saying "we're not all nazis", but at same time saying "we're not angels either". then it got very twisted and used to promote a more PC stance, but in its inception I thought it was a good idea. But as time went on it became a way for skinheads to be apologetic, as if they wanted society to "like them". The whole "hated and proud" mentality kinda went out the window with that. Reminds me of that Straw Dogs song where they say "when society accepts you, you know skinhead is dead", or something to that effect.

I'm not defending WP skins, I'm just saying objectively that I do remember quite a few of them looking smart back then, and looking traditional for lack of better term. I guess that memo never made it down under.

but it reminds me of how times do change... the 80s was a tough time to be a skinhead, like Roy says about his days in the 60s....society didnt like you, police didnt like you, other skins/punk didn't like you. Because the scene was big and skinheads made news headlines, when people saw a skinhead walk down the street they knew what he was. today, a skinhead walks down the street no one knows he is a skinhead. Back then you had to go out and be a skinhead in real life, taking the bumps/bruises that came with it. A lot of the guys involved in Blood and Honour/WP/NF back then, now many of them are "traditional" skinheads, listening to reggae/ska (sometimes even DJing it). I think that's why there's been a renaissance of born agains and new "old" skins, because it's easy today. But if it's so easy to be a skinhead now, maybe it really is dead. But Lasttye would say it died in 1970/71

Originally Posted by Get Smart

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But Lasttye would say it died in 1970/71

Firmly but gently he would, and to be honest he wouldn't be alone. There was a hiatus between the end of our day and the beginning of the Oi generation, and a considerable difference in mid-set, culture when they kicked off.

yes, a huge difference. The more I reflect on it, I have no problem with the way skinhead has morphed into 2 completely different cults. There is the revisionist scene, more interested in the original days, and the oi scene still goes strong of course. Before we used to say that rockabilly was the skinhead retirement plan, once you got tired of the drama/aggro (and wanted to meet cuter girls), and many of us went that way for a while. But now it seems that "skinhead" is the skinhead retirement plan, you go from the Oi scene to the "original" scene. And that's cool, it's nice to see skinheads interested in being smart again, since the Oi scene (esp in America) spurred a lack of interest in skins to look smart the way they used to in early 80s