The StyleForum Working Hierarchical Suit Quality List (SFWHSQL!)

Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Despos
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli
- Borrelli

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
- Sartoria Partenopea
- RLPL
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
- Caruso
- Canali
- Corneliani
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Zegna


Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818
- Paul Smith
- RLBL
- H. Freeman
- Samuelsohn

Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
- Hugo Boss
- Banana Republic Monogram
- Lauren Ralph Lauren-



Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
- H&M
- Banana Republic
- Calvin Klein
- Tasso Elba
- Nautica

Bumped Samuelsohn down one, mainly because of cut. Also, I think there should be a tier between very good and good, as I really would not put Isaia on the same level as Hickey Freeman and Canali and Zegna (if we are only counting mainline). In addition, I really don't know if I can put Isaia on the same line as RLPL and Sartoria Partenopea and Sartoria Attolini. I bumped them up anyways though.

Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Despos
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli
- Borrelli

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
- Sartoria Partenopea
- RLPL
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia
- Caruso Sartoria Parma
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale
- Ravazzolo?

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
- Caruso
- Canali
- Corneliani
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Ermenegildo Zegna


Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818
- Paul Smith
- RLBL
- H. Freeman
- Samuelsohn
- Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
- Hugo Boss
- Banana Republic Monogram
- Lauren Ralph Lauren-



Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
- H&M
- Banana Republic
- Calvin Klein
- Tasso Elba
- Nautica

I added Caruso sartoria parma because of the significant difference with mainline Caruso (mainly in the wonderful shoulder construction)
Added Ermenegildo Zegna instead of just Zegna to clarify the addition of Z-Zegna
Added Pal Zileri Sartoriale, I own a pair of pants with this label that is really really beautifully constructed.
Added Ravazzollo: perhaps someone else can rate them for us?

Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Despos
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli
- Borrelli

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
- Sartoria Partenopea
- RLPL
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia
- Caruso Sartoria Parma
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale
- Ravazzolo?
- Zegna Couture

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
- Caruso
- Canali
- Corneliani
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Ermenegildo Zegna


Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818
- Paul Smith
- RLBL
- H. Freeman
- Samuelsohn
- Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
- Hugo Boss
- Banana Republic Monogram
- Lauren Ralph Lauren-



Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
- H&M
- Banana Republic
- Calvin Klein
- Tasso Elba
- Nautica

This is one of the most useful threads on this forum. Please Stickify!!

I don't think it's reasonable to put H&M or BR in the "bad" category, given that they are recommended as entry-level suits on nearly a daily basis...

Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Despos
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli
- Borrelli

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
- Sartoria Partenopea
- RLPL
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia
- Caruso Sartoria Parma
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale
- Ravazzolo?
- Zegna Couture

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
- Caruso
- Canali
- Corneliani
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Ermenegildo Zegna
- RLBL


Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818
- Paul Smith
- H. Freemann
- Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
- Samuelsohn
- Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
- Hugo Boss
- Banana Republic Monogram
- Lauren Ralph Lauren-



Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
- H&M
- Banana Republic
- Calvin Klein
- Tasso Elba
- Nautica

**Bumped RLBL up one notch; I don't know how it can be ranked in line with stuff that is all fused and half canvas.

There should also be a minimal qualifier to make into the top 2-3 notches such as canvassing being full. And I second the notion that the entire list should be only RTW or MTM at a minimum to exclude bespoke Saville Row stuff, et al

I haven't read thru all of this crap but this list is BS in that posters should be required to post their experience behind the brands they ranked. I think, many of these are just folks shuffling brands they either know from SF or else. For instance, those of you who ranked Samuelsohn as good or satisfactory, WTF is wrong with you??

Remember, the OP listed value, i.e. bang for the buck, as part of the quotient here.

This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.

Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.
Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.

i could understand if due to pure fabrics but i agree as well, it should be on par with the upper echelon

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.

Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.

Originally Posted by sho'nuff

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i could understand if due to pure fabrics but i agree as well, it should be on par with the upper echelon

As a relative newbie to this stuff who has spent a lot of time searching through the archives, I see this thread as having potentially significant value for people like me *if* veterans like you two would be generous enough to actually modify the list itself.

Below is the list restated, with modifications to reflect your comments; I am *not* inserting my personal opinion. If I've misunderstood, please correct me. I, for one, would be grateful if you guys would take a harder look at the list and give it a thorough overall, or even start over in a new thread.

For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to try to factor in "value for money" because prices vary. Easier to rank makers / lines by quality and then let people comparison shop on price themselves. (E.g., if I see a suit in a superior category priced the same as one in a lower tier, then I know I'm looking at a bargain...)

The list:
Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
- Kiton
- Oxxford
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli
- Borrelli
- RLPL

Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
- Sartoria Partenopea

- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Isaia
- Caruso Sartoria Parma
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale
- Ravazzolo?
- Zegna Couture

Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
- Caruso
- Canali
- Corneliani
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Ermenegildo Zegna
- Samuelsohn


Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
- Cantarelli
- Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
- Brooks Brothers 1818
- Paul Smith
- H. Freemann
- Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
- RLBL
- Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
- Hugo Boss
- Banana Republic Monogram
- Lauren Ralph Lauren-



Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
- H&M
- Banana Republic
- Calvin Klein
- Tasso Elba
- Nautica


Again -- just trying to incorporate the opinions stated in this thread by guys we all know to be knowledgeable. Would love it Foo, bigbris, vox, manton, despos, iammatt, etc. would take a hard look at this list, for the benefit of those of us who are still learning.

Can we also take into consideration the price point some of these suits can be had for, in lieu of their MSRP? I wouldn't pay $500 for a LRL suit but they can be bought brand new for ~$150 all day long. That should be the real price we use to determine this list.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.


Why can't RLBL be at the same level? You mention RLPL. Many of those suits are made by Caruso, who made a lot of Black Fleece as well as RLBL. So why would RLPL necessarily be above those other brands? Is there something I'm missing?

I can understand if we are breaking it down to years of models and even seasons, since Black Fleece has undergone a lot of change (i.e. from made in Italy to the USA) as well as others. But what necessarily makes RLBL inferior or superior to BB Golden Fleece?

I'd rank BB Black Fleece from 2007 above Golden Fleece (in terms of quality) but I can only bump one notch per day

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Also, Despos is an anomaly.

Wise words.


- B

Originally Posted by AgWagon

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This is one of the most useful threads on this forum. Please Stickify!!

Agreed.

I am committing this whole list to memory, and even now, I am making up little flashcards to help the memorization process.


- B

Originally Posted by furo

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Why can't RLBL be at the same level? You mention RLPL. Many of those suits are made by Caruso, who made a lot of Black Fleece as well as RLBL. So why would RLPL necessarily be above those other brands? Is there something I'm missing?

I can understand if we are breaking it down to years of models and even seasons, since Black Fleece has undergone a lot of change (i.e. from made in Italy to the USA) as well as others. But what necessarily makes RLBL inferior or superior to BB Golden Fleece?

I'd rank BB Black Fleece from 2007 above Golden Fleece (in terms of quality) but I can only bump one notch per day

Maybe I have my facts wrong, but I was under the impression that RLPL suits are made by Santandrea (formerly St. Andrews), mostly if not exclusively. From what I've seen and heard, Santandrea suits are every bit as nice as Oxxford and Kiton.

I am not familiar with the maker of RLBL suits, but the quality doesn't approach what I've seen from the makers mentioned above. I don't remember seeing any hand-stitching in the RLBL suits I've looked at.

I know little to nothing about Black Fleece suits. Did I say something about them?