Spanking

Originally Posted by gdl203

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What exactly annoys you about this post?
It was mostly the implicit equivalence of a parent spanking a child with the general hitting of any family member. That said, my reply was heavy on snark and light on content, so I'm guilty of the same thing here. It's pretty clear we have fundamentally different views on pretty much everything except punitive taxes on Wall St. bonuses.

Originally Posted by dah328

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It was mostly the implicit equivalence of a parent spanking a child with the general hitting of any family member.
What is the main difference, beside the fact that the former is more cowardly because parents are stronger than children?

Originally Posted by gdl203

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What is the main difference, beside the fact that the former is more cowardly because parents are stronger than children?

its not my job to educate my wife or parents.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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its not my job to educate my wife or parents.
Why on earth would educating involve physical violence? Do you allow teachers to spank or hit your children because it's their job to educate them?

Education, just like resolving disputes or differences of opinion, is done verbally and motivated by awards and punishments. Punishments do not need to be physically violent - confiscation of toys, suppression of pocket money, grounding, etc....

Originally Posted by gdl203

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What exactly annoys you about this post?



I'm making a pretty clear point. If it's not clear enough, I'll spell it out for you: I do not believe that grown-ups should use physical violence to resolve domestic issues with their family members. Resorting to physical violence is an immature way to solve problem, something that kids do. Moreover, using physical violence on children who are clearly weaker is IMO an obvious evidence of cowardice. That's my opinion.

we're apparently nazi cause we don't slap kids...

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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we're apparently nazi cause we don't slap kids...

C'est le monde à l'envers

Originally Posted by gdl203

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C'est le monde à l'envers

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Why on earth would educating involve physical violence? Do you allow teachers to spank or hit your children because it's their job to educate them?

Education, just like resolving disputes or differences of opinion, is done verbally and motivated by awards and punishments. Punishments do not need to be physically violent - confiscation of toys, suppression of pocket money, grounding, etc....

I don't rule out physical violence as an educational tool. I have had to use corporal punishment very very fewe times with my children, but I wouldn't have ruled out using it more, if needed

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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I don't rule out physical violence as an educational tool. I have had to use corporal punishment very very fewe times with my children, but I wouldn't have ruled out using it more, if needed

But why? I really wonder why you thought you "had to" use physical violence.

I assume you know that spanking and other corporal punishment is illegal in Israel, right?

Originally Posted by gdl203

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But why? I really wonder why you thought you "had to" use physical violence.

I assume you know that spanking and other corporal punishment is illegal in Israel, right?

didn't know that.

I think that, used correctly, it can be a good tool.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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We don't actually use physical punishment to punish adults who "misbehave", in fact for the kind of minor misbehaving that children usually engage in we usually don't punish adults at all aside from enforcing social norms (i.e. disapproval, public shame, exclusion, etc). Your comparison just does not stand to a quick scrutiny. We are left with education/instruction something we also engage in with adults (and kids) through other means than slaps and spankings.
1. No, society does not formally punish adults for the types of things children are typically punished for doing. But the point is that discipline often requires some sort of physical coercion to enforce. Your reasoning that children do not need physical coercion because adults don't is fallacious because: (a) the adult-adult relationship is not the same as the parent-child relationship, (b) children generally need more instruction and conditioning than adults, and (c) physical coercion is evidently necessary for discipline at the adult level, anyway. 2. That there are other means to educate or instruct does not mean that spanking does not work or is never necessary.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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note 2: I won't bother with Foo's second paragraph; it's not even related to the quote above and is just a rant. I can let him rant if he wants to.
It's not a rant--I'm trying to confront the way you participate in these sorts of discussions. It is very difficult to engage you because you have certain sacred (dare I say, religious) premises that you don't allow to be questioned. They arise every time you attempt to encapsulate someone's argument within your inferences about their social circumstances and identity and try to fit them into a convenient narrative. You seem to believe that you really "get" everyone else, to the point where you believe you know what they really think, despite what they are actually saying. The end result is something like: "I'm right because I know better than you." Yes, it's a little insulting.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Why on earth would educating involve physical violence? Do you allow teachers to spank or hit your children because it's their job to educate them? Education, just like resolving disputes or differences of opinion, is done verbally and motivated by awards and punishments. Punishments do not need to be physically violent - confiscation of toys, suppression of pocket money, grounding, etc....
But, isn't the line between "physical" violence and the sort of physical disenfranchisement you're describing actually very faint at the conceptual level? Whether my stuff gets stolen or someone punches me in the face, I've been violated. I think kids can be reasoned with sometimes--but, let's face it, not all the time. Does that mean you need to spank them? Not necessarily. But I think you're kidding yourself if you think children understand incentive systems well enough to always operate efficiently within them. Moreover, incentives instilled by singular absolute authorities (parents) can hardly be counted on to be consistently reasonable. So, maybe spanking makes more sense than no sense at all.

With all due respect foo, please don't tell me "I'm kidding myself" or try to explain to me that violence cannot be avoided. I was raised without a single act of physical violence from my parents, so was my brother, and we are fine, law-abiding citizens. Corporal punishment is illegal in dozens of countries and people do as good of a job at parenting there than those living in countries that didn't ban it (yet). I am also a father and I am committed to never using violence on my children.

Not to mention the obvious which is that serious studies (i.e. not the ones by the same people who said dinosaurs roamed the Earth with humans) have proven multiple times that corporal punishment is not an effective discipline tool and leads to more issues with authority later in life than less.

Parents spank children because it's easier for them than trying to solve the problem in a responsible way. It's cowardly and a cop out from being a real responsible parent.

I know you're doing your favorite thing right now which is arguing as a sport, since you established early that you were not a proponent of physical violence, but still your tone is annoying.

I feel the need to weigh in here.

I was spanked once, and my mother cried about it for like two days. Sometimes, when I am in a feisty mood, I tease her about it thirty something years later. I'd never spank my kids. Ever. I think it is useless and teaches the wrong things, like that you are supposed to go around hitting people when they do something you don't like.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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With all due respect foo, please don't tell me "I'm kidding myself" or try to explain to me that violence cannot be avoided. I was raised without a single act of physical violence from my parents, so was my brother, and we are fine, law-abiding citizens. Corporal punishment is illegal in dozens of countries and people do as good of a job at parenting there than those living in countries that didn't ban it (yet). I am also a father and I am committed to never using violence on my children.

I didn't say violence cannot be avoided--as I alluded to earlier, I'd like to believe it can be avoided most of the time, if not all the time in most cases. My point is that punishment is inherently violent and incentive systems created by parents aren't always as fair and reasonable as we'd like to believe. After all, parents themselves are fallible. Moreover, even when you are fair and reasonable as a parent, there is no assuring that the punished child will understand your fairness or your reasoning.

I'm not questioning your personal parenting choices. You know your children better than anyone else. If your approach works for them, that's wonderful--and it's only your business anyway. I am speaking generally. Your children are not everyone else's.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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Not to mention the obvious which is that serious studies (i.e. not the ones by the same people who said dinosaurs roamed the Earth with humans) have proven multiple times that corporal punishment is not an effective discipline tool and leads to more issues with authority later in life than less.

I do not question that spanking and physical discipline can have long-term negative consequences. However, politically-correct, contemporary parenting also has its ill-effects. America is full of bratty, lazy, self-entitled, narcissistic children. Perhaps studies 20 years from now will show the folly of blind faith in parenting with reasonable incentives.

Originally Posted by gdl203

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I know you're doing your favorite thing right now which is arguing as a sport, since you established early that you were not a proponent of physical violence, but still your tone is annoying.

That's not fair. I'm not just so cut-and-dry on the issue. I'm not willing to rule out spanking as a sometimes-necessary approach, that's all.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I didn't say violence cannot be avoided--as I alluded to earlier, I'd like to believe it can be avoided most of the time, if not all the time in most cases.
I'm not sure I understand the nuance here. Saying that violence cannot always be avoided (which is what you're saying) is the same thing as saying that violence cannot be avoided (which is what you're pretending you're not saying).