the profoundly unofficial I Sarti Italiani thread

[circumspice]

A number of people (@dieworkwear , @UrbanComposition , @Mr. Six , @emptym, @Crispyj , @ThinkDerm , @Andy57 ) on SF have commissioned garments from Sicily's I Sarti Italiani , who was coming to the US ~2x a year before Covid. It seems that the US may open its borders to vaccinated individuals later this year... so hopefully folks will need this thread then or perhaps in the spring, but I am starting this now out of self interest as I am in Rome for the next 6 weeks which might give me the opportunity to start a new commission.

I am looking for options for light grey linen that would be carried in books likely to be carried by I Sarti. I have spent the last few days in Rome where it has been on the wrong side of 80F/28C, and the humidity is making it worse, so I am more than ever on Team Italy for Linen, and not British Isles > 12 ounces that rumples rather than wrinkles.

Drapers - their web site seems to have a complete black hole for grey linen, perhaps they update it in accordance with their stock, and they have run out?
Drago - I think I Sarti carries them, but I don't think their books are online?
Zegna -

Zegna Cotton & Linen Summer - Hall Madden

http://hallmadden.com

hallmadden.smugmug.com

This is promising, but is somewhat translucent - the prior photo of the reverse shows the label peeking through. This airiness may be what I am looking for.

Cacciopoli - nothing really promising.

I am thinking I might do a suit with a number of pairs of spare trousers - I have gone through a couple of pairs of RTW or MTO grey linen trousers across the last decade, so they are real staple for me in spring and summer. I know a bunch of y'all were doing odd trousers with I Sarti in high twist wool, but I tend to more fully embrace the wrinkles in S&S

Going to send I Sarti a note soon, but trying to do some legwork up front

 

[dieworkwear]

I don't know what linen books Salvo has access to, but Solbiati has Italian linens. I admit I still prefer the British stuff (namely W. Bill).

I don't know if Solbiati has grey linen though.

FWIW, I know W. Bill has grey linens. I can take some photos later, if you decide to switch to British linen.

If you get a suit from Salvo, I think you should ask for the silhouette he made for Urbancomp/ Peter. Peter basically worked with them to create a different silhouette -- fuller chest, mappina shoulders, slightly extended shoulders, etc. IMO, it's a really nice cut.

I also think that Salvo prefers a higher gorge. I don't know what are other people's experiences. I love the suit I got from him, but next time, will prob ask for a slightly lower gorge.

Would also clarify with him whether the lapels will be hand picked stitch or machine pick stitch. I thought I asked for the full works in terms of hand stitching, but my suit came with matching pick stitching. The gorge and the pick stitching are the only two things I plan to change on my next commission.

Otherwise, an incredible value and I love the cut. My next order is going to be a dark brown linen DB suit and a cream linen sport coat. Then getting a green gab DB suit and a tweed sport coat thereafter.

 

[UrbanComposition]

Tickets have been purchased.

SF trunk show 10-13 November Wednesday-Friday
NYC trunk show 14-16 November Sunday-Tuesday

 

[emptym]

^Yay!

@circumspice, I have some gray linen pants from Ambrosi that I think are Drapers. The linen is great, medium weight, doesn't wrinkle much. Mine are medium gray, but there was a light gray too, though this was 10, 11 yrs ago.

I sent some Minnis fabrics to Salvo a last year and I'm really looking forward to his visit. Like DWW, I've asked for a slightly lower gorge on the jacket. Here's a recent pic of the jacket I got from him:

 

[Crispyj]

My jacket came out fitting funny. I don't remember what I asked for lapels but definitely wider.
Hopefully 2nd order will be better.

Trousers fit great. Dugdale cavalry twill in medium gray and charcoal ready to get funded.

 

[UrbanComposition]

I think the heaviest linen I saw from Drapers is 12/13oz. The book is nice and includes mottled and herringbone choices that are very unique; Salvo made them into a suit and sport coat. A good compromise between 10/11oz and the insane 17/18oz Harrisons Mersolair.

Drapers also makes a gabardine that I’m keen to try as a DB next summer. Salvo has a woolen flannel from VBC that he’ll be making into a DB.

 

[物の哀れ]

 

[classicalthunde]

Very excited for I Sarti to start up their trunk shows, I was really close to hopping the train up for their pre-COVID March visit but decided against it last minute...so now I've used the past 18 months to stockpile 2-3 lengths of cloth ready to be made up (hopefully for some summertime wear)!

@UrbanComposition or @dieworkwear can you guys possibly talk about the Mappina vs. a Spalla Camicia?

I'm definitely interested the urbancomp/peter style with a fuller chest/some drape although I had originally envisioned a spalla camicia without a lot of decorative shearing similar to Simon's Ciardi suit below:

 

[UrbanComposition]

My understanding about mappina is that while spalla camicia presses the seam inward back toward the neck, mappina presses the seam outward. There is a bit of canvassing from the chestpiece included, so that the sleevehead juts out a bit from the seam, giving the illusion of an extended shoulder without actually doing so.

 

[dieworkwear]

Very excited for I Sarti to start up their trunk shows, I was really close to hopping the train up for their pre-COVID March visit but decided against it last minute...so now I've used the past 18 months to stockpile 2-3 lengths of cloth ready to be made up (hopefully for some summertime wear)!

@UrbanComposition or @dieworkwear can you guys possibly talk about the Mappina vs. a Spalla Camicia?

I'm definitely interested the urbancomp/peter style with a fuller chest/some drape although I had originally envisioned a spalla camicia without a lot of decorative shearing similar to Simon's Ciardi suit below:

View attachment 1673296

As Peter explained, it's just about how you finish the inside of the coat. Every seam is going to have a bit of seam allowance because you can't sew fabric right at the edge. If you look inside of your trousers, you'll see the seam allowance running along the leg. If you have partially lined suit jackets or sport coats, the back seam will also show the seam allowance. Typically, both of these seams are pressed open.

The area where the sleeve attaches to the shoulder is the same. The seam allowance looks something like this.

The sleeve here is green. The shoulder is red. The black line is the stitching that joins these two pieces.

Once they're joined, the tailor has to figure out what to do with the seam allowance. They can press it open, as they do with the back seam on your coats or the leg seam on your trousers. That will push the sleeve's seam allowance towards the sleeve. And the shoulder's seam allowance towards the neck.

Or they can press both seam allowances towards the sleeve and away from the neck. This ends up creating a bit of support for the sleeve. It "props" up the material and crates the illusion of an extended shoulder without actually changing the shoulder measurement. Italians call this mappina.

You can see how the excess fabric supports the sleeve here. Notice how the seam sits a little away from very edge of the shoulder. That distance is created by pressing the seam allowance in such a way so that it supports the sleeve. Tailors can also finish the inside of the sleeve so it creates a small ridge (what Italians call con rollino).

Alternatively, the tailor can press both seam allowances towards the neck.

Depending on how the sleeve is cut, inserted, and finished, this can create the very rounded shoulder line and waterfall effect you see above. Note how the sleeve basically drops right where the sleeve seam starts. There's no material to prop it up.

JefferyD also covered some of this in a post about shoulder expression. Even if a jacket is soft or structured, you can change the effect of the shoulder line by how you finish the very ends.

Shoulder expression

OK, listen up kids, it's time to get technical for a second. It's obvious that there are some misunderstandings about what we call "shoulder expression". When we refer to the expression of a shoulder we are referring to its shape, or appearance. They can be concave, pagoda, roped, natural, etc...

www.styleforum.net

The expression at the end dramatically changes how the coat looks. In my experience, a spalla camicia shoulder will make the overall shoulder look more rounded. It's not only narrower on your shoulder, but the effect is rounder. (See the third photo in the set above)

A mappina shoulder will not only extend the shoulder, but it will "T" it off a bit (see the second photo in the set above)

I've grown to not like the spalla camicia look. First, I'm a big fan of extended shoulders. Second, I just don't like very rounded silhouettes on me. I already stand with a bit of a hunch, so the rounded shoulder just makes me look worse.

If you're working with a tailor who uses a very light shoulder construction, and you're worried about the ends collapsing if he or she extends the shoulder too much, you can sometimes get away with just a littttlee bit more extension by asking them for a mappina construction. This way, you're not actually extending the shoulder, just pressing the outlet towards the sleeve.

 

[classicalthunde]

As Peter explained, it's just about how you finish the inside of the coat. Every seam is going to have a bit of seam allowance because you can't sew fabric right at the edge. If you look inside of your trousers, you'll see the seam allowance running along the leg. If you have partially lined suit jackets or sport coats, the back seam will also show the seam allowance. Typically, both of these seams are pressed open.

The area where the sleeve attaches to the shoulder is the same. The seam allowance looks something like this.

View attachment 1673650

The sleeve here is green. The shoulder is red. The black line is the stitching that joins these two pieces.


View attachment 1673651

Once they're joined, the tailor has to figure out what to do with the seam allowance. They can press it open, as they do with the back seam on your coats or the leg seam on your trousers. That will push the sleeve's seam allowance towards the sleeve. And the shoulder's seam allowance towards the neck.

View attachment 1673652


Or they can press both seam allowances towards the sleeve and away from the neck. This ends up creating a bit of support for the sleeve. It "props" up the material and crates the illusion of an extended shoulder without actually changing the shoulder measurement. Italians call this mappina.

View attachment 1673653

You can see how the excess fabric supports the sleeve here. Notice how the seam sits a little away from very edge of the shoulder. That distance is created by pressing the seam allowance in such a way so that it supports the sleeve. Tailors can also finish the inside of the sleeve so it creates a small ridge (what Italians call con rollino).

View attachment 1673654

Alternatively, the tailor can press both seam allowances towards the neck.


View attachment 1673655


Depending on how the sleeve is cut, inserted, and finished, this can create the very rounded shoulder line and waterfall effect you see above. Note how the sleeve basically drops right where the sleeve seam starts. There's no material to prop it up.



View attachment 1673657 View attachment 1673656


JefferyD also covered some of this in a post about shoulder expression. Even if a jacket is soft or structured, you can change the effect of the shoulder line by how you finish the very ends.

Shoulder expression

OK, listen up kids, it's time to get technical for a second. It's obvious that there are some misunderstandings about what we call "shoulder expression". When we refer to the expression of a shoulder we are referring to its shape, or appearance. They can be concave, pagoda, roped, natural, etc...

www.styleforum.net

The expression at the end dramatically changes how the coat looks. In my experience, a spalla camicia shoulder will make the overall shoulder look more rounded. It's not only narrower on your shoulder, but the effect is rounder. (See the third photo in the set above)

A mappina shoulder will not only extend the shoulder, but it will "T" it off a bit (see the second photo in the set above)

I've grown to not like the spalla camicia look. First, I'm a big fan of extended shoulders. Second, I just don't like very rounded silhouettes on me. I already stand with a bit of a hunch, so the rounded shoulder just makes me look worse.

If you're working with a tailor who uses a very light shoulder construction, and you're worried about the ends collapsing if he or she extends the shoulder too much, you can sometimes get away with just a littttlee bit more extension by asking them for a mappina construction. This way, you're not actually extending the shoulder, just pressing the outlet towards the sleeve.

Thanks for the thorough technical breakdown of mappina v. camicia!

I like the idea of a soft shoulder on a softly tailored Italian sport coat but I have relatively narrow shoulders relative to my frame. Its good to know that both a mappina and camicia can work well in an soft sport coat context, as I am looking for something more on the causal end of things to off set the British-style shoulders of my Hemrajani suits/jackets.

I guess where the rubber meets the road is how the two different choices work on my frame, so I'll defer to Salvo and Peter on that one at the trunk show

 

[UrbanComposition]

Just heard from Salvo that the storm in Sicily took out their mail server (among other things). They had to setup a new server with a new email: [email protected]

Existing customers will get an email with dates, and those who haven’t already can ask for a preferred time slot.

Amazingly, there is no price hike for the garments, just fabrics.

 

[Mr. Six]

Just heard from Salvo that the storm in Sicily took out their mail server (among other things). They had to setup a new server with a new email: [email protected]

Existing customers will get an email with dates, and those who haven’t already can ask for a preferred time slot.

Amazingly, there is no price hike for the garments, just fabrics.

So email them for appointments? I was wondering whether I should text you soon about it.

 

[UrbanComposition]

Yeah…trying to get them to do their own scheduling ?

 

[Mr. Six]

Confirmed my appointment for 12 November at 2 p.m. Any other Bay Area folks have appointments around then and want to grab a drink or something?