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Neckties: A Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, Sep 15, 2015.

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  1. Claghorn

    Claghorn Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    I've seen the term used to refer to that specific sort of...weave...since I don't know a better term...by Thomas Pink and Trywhitt for a while. Heard it used plenty as such when I joined SF three years ago (so pretty recently). First time I saw Drakes and TYT refer to it as such was today though (and they don't refer to other ties of a different weave but woven on a jacquard loom as such).

    I first heard it used in this way in March of 2007 in Dallas (flying back from a Spring Break spent in Taipei). Thomas Pink store. The lady was explaining the term; I recall it being named after the inventor of the loom? or that specific loom? Anyway, I ended up getting a tie which was "not" jacquard. I still have the tie; I've not worn it since 2011--totally worn out. But I kept it as a memento: my first "good" tie.

    [​IMG]

    I suspect that this was woven on a jacquard loom.

    Now I associate the term with stiff, shinier silks (which that was not). Language sometimes evolves most vexingly. Or perhaps not (a saleslady, a forum, and a few odd brands don't exactly suggest a widespread change)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015


  2. Coxsackie

    Coxsackie Distinguished Member

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    Oh, that would be me.
     


  3. Claghorn

    Claghorn Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    The fellow posting above you.

    As opposed to the fellow who posted above me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015


  4. sprout2

    sprout2 Distinguished Member

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    Any loom still has to pass the thread horizontally at some point; "jacquard loom" in that sense is a misnomer, because a loom can or cannot have this functionality added after the fact. The jacquard process uses punch cards/computer program to tell the machine when to perform "shedding" -- raising the thread to create a three dimensional space in which to pass threads. This creates the extruded, three-dimensional pattern typical of brocade, Nishijin silk, etc. There are numerous factors that control the degree of texture/extrusion, not least of which is the jacquard process itself, but could also include finishing treaments involving chemicals or steam to loosen threads in the weave and cause them to push up (I admit the latter is esoteric). When talking about ties, we are referring to the process by which the pattern was derived, i.e., is the fabric a plain weave with the pattern printed on after the fact through some discharge method (printed tie) or is the pattern woven into the tie with the threads itself (jacquard). I think this is highly descriptive and doesn't leave much room for misinterpretation. It should also be intuitively clear to you when looking at some of the examples above of the paisley/rosette ties versus their printed equivalent.

    Take a look at Google Images. It's very explanatory. A regular high speed projectile loom versus one with jacquard functionality have a different appearance. The large vertical tent-like spiderweb of the thousands of threads that are manipulated by the jacquard program is distinctive. You have to control the X, Y, and Z axes to create that three dimensionality. Regular weaving on the X/Y is not going to have that complexity of pattern or extrusion.

    Just for fun, here is an old jacquard-ed loom with punch card pattern and hand shuttle. There would be a computer screen today. The operator hand picks pulls and errors and rethreads things. For truly unique/boutique applications, machinery is custom specced and when it breaks, the weaver has to get in there and know how to fix it (the gears, not the fabric). However, actually manning the machine is low on the knowledge chain. Designing the patterns and programs requires a much more advanced knowledge of how to manipulate the thousands of needles across X/Y/Z coordinates to produce the desired effect.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015


  5. sprout2

    sprout2 Distinguished Member

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    Incidentally, that texture can still be created by hand, it's just insanely labor intensive to manipulate a thread or shuttle in that manner. Japanese silk used to be and are still occasionally made this way and at its best it can rival a machine product in terms of complexity. Crazier still is that a lot of folk weaving in India remains totally unmechanized.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015


  6. EliodA

    EliodA Distinguished Member

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    ^ Wow, that's some impressive machinery! I wasn't precise enough: when I wrote woven, I did indeed mean a tie where the pattern is woven instead of printed on.
     


  7. sprout2

    sprout2 Distinguished Member

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    Here is a moderate speed, slow-scale rapier loom with a jacquard head. Notice the up and down tenting movement of the vertical needles. Also really loud, I think people operating these in non-factory contexts will go hard of hearing.

    [​IMG]
     


  8. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    I am not sure what to say - jacquard weaving is a very cool technical innovation - from the below article it may have been a combination of the work of different people which sounds logical but I have not studied the history or mechanics of a jacquard loom and I don't personally know how to operate one but I have the general idea.

    Keep in mind that many tie brands are just that brands not tie makers and they might not know as much as they seem to and sometimes they totally make up things.

    As for sales staff in stores they normally know what is told to them by sales reps who know very little. There are a few old classic stores that have very senior staff who may know quite a bit but they are the exception.

    As an example I strongly suspect that the tie you mention was indeed woven on a jacquard loom. The lady was also certainly not lying but was told something by a sales rep who was shall we say somewhat less than accurate. as a test next time ask a sales clerk to give you a quick summary of what a jacquard loom is and what a jacquard tie is and why.

    I can remember being in a Nordstrom store and a sales lady was describing a "lifeline" in a tie as if that term was a normal technical one - needless to say I had never heard that term before and never since.

    The forum posts are probably ones I haven't read as I would have commented if time allowed.

    Language certainly changes over time and so there could be some changes afoot which are not good ones and maybe I do see them but I ignore them and try to speak correctly.

    Panama hats are not from Panama but it is perhaps too late to set the record straight but jousting at windmills sounds like fun... (although I think most people know about Panama hats)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_weaving

    Sometimes people make things up when writing as an example there was a guy making ties who used the term double 4-fold or something like that which to me means an 8-fold tie but to him it meant a 7-fold or 6-fold I forget which.

    I posted that he was wrong and requested he explain the folds, of course he couldn't come up with any good reason for his made up term - that guy faded away as has term (I hope).

    In summary I feel that clothing terms should be accurate and not used if they are misleading - so if a fabric is woven on a jacquard loom it is a jacquard fabric but to imply this is a special subset of woven fabric is wrong. A small point perhaps but an important one to me.

    Sometimes I have conversations with gentlemen who love ties and they talk about silk fabric and then they mention grenadines as if they are not silk (sometimes they are not but usually they are) I always try to explain that grenadines are also typically silk so they are a silk fabric.

    I am patient and enjoy conversations about fabrics and clothes but I prefer to use accurate terms. There are many forum members who also are accurate and some take the time to make explanations. Carl "Shirtmaven" is a great example of this - he is very patient and has lots of great information.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015


  9. EliodA

    EliodA Distinguished Member

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    Indonesian batik is famous for the printed fabrics, but there is also a less well known variant that features intricate woven patterns. Very often made in small workshops.

    @Sam Hober your generosity in sharing your know how is very much appreciated.
    The Wikipedia article indeed suggests that jacquard refers to machine weaving of patterns.

    When I still lived in Holland we used to go snowboarding in the Alps and we always made sure to stop for dinner in Lyon. To load up with calories. ;)
     


  10. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    Your trips to the Alps sound like fun, and Indonesia has very beautiful fabrics.

    What language I wonder is "ikat" originally from?

    It is a word that is used by many people but I can tell you that in Thailand the correct word is mudmee and the local artisans will not be happy if you use ikat to describe the yarn dyeing technique that they have been using for as long as they can remember.

    I mention this as it is important from a perspective simply being polite and respecting local traditions.
     


  11. EliodA

    EliodA Distinguished Member

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    Ikat is an Indonesian word, originally from Javanese language. It means tie, knot or weaving. For example Ikat Dokter Indonesia is the doctors union. Ikat janji means marriage vows.
    Every region of Indonesia has its own type of ikat, there are dozens of different kinds.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikat
     


  12. sprout2

    sprout2 Distinguished Member

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    I was actually about to post this for you:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015


  13. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    Thank you - interesting to see how the word is used in different contexts.

    I also like it that different regions have their own styles.
     


  14. Darkside

    Darkside Distinguished Member

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    [​IMG]

    Is the one on the right a "jacquard?" BTW, The fourth is a grossa from KW, for the user who was asking. The third is Hober. First two are knits.
     


  15. Mr. Six

    Mr. Six Distinguished Member

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    ^ I suspect it wouldn't be considered "jacquard" because the florets aren't raised--or at least don't appear to be. That doesn't mean it wasn't woven on a jacquard loom (or a loom capable of doing jacquard).

    This might be the only "jacquard" tie I have. I've taken Manton's non-rule rule to heart so don't usually like them. But I think this one is tasteful enough. I haven't worn it for a while though. It's a thick silk, lightly lined, untipped, from Cappelli

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015


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