Neckties: A Discussion Thread

[Academic2]

Does anyone have a photo of a woven patterned tie that doesn’t have the elements of the pattern in raised relief? I never thought about it before, but as I do now I don’t think I own such a tie myself.

I’ve got a few of the sort we’ve been talking about, however. Here’s a close-up of one. The background is horizontally ribbed with thicker weft and finer warp while the elements of the pattern are diagonal.




The effect is almost like embroidery or brocade.

I don’t necessarily think of them as cheaper (in either sense of the word) as much as I think of them as ‘louder’. I haven't worn any of mine for a few years now, probably for that reason.

Cheers,

Ac

 

[EliodA]

Jacquards are just devices added to an existing loom that allows for it to weave out complex patterns. Basically an add on/upgrade. I suspect all modern mills have jacquard technology and would just use it to weave everything and anything because of how efficient it is, meaning they can still weave out simple solids and striped patterns.

Very informative. So, is it safe to conclude that technically speaking, any tie that is made on a loom with a jacquard device can be called a jacquard tie, but that when used in the vernacular 'jacquard' means a tie where the pattern is woven in as opposed to printed?

Anyway, this thread needs more pics. My only two jacquard ties:



The back may be interesting:




Edit: found another one, though I'm not sure this qualifies for what is commonly called a jacquard tie, though clearly its pattern is woven:



Ac2, is this what you mean with a pattern that doesn't have a raised relief?

By the way, I believe @Cleav had some special order Capelli jacquards done recently. Looked very tasteful.

 

[Academic2]

Ac2, is this what you mean with a pattern that doesn't have a raised relief?

I can't quite tell without greater magnification—and 'raised' in the sense that Claghorn ("I think this is what I always thought of. Raised florets or patterns") and I have used the term is of course a matter of degree.

Let's put it this way, if you close your eyes and run your fingers over it, can you feel the difference between the figure and the ground?

Cheers,

Ac

 

[TweedyProf]

Looks "jacquard" to me. And we should find a new term...I can feel David wince every time we say it.

@TweedyProf , thoughts?

Jacquards are just devices added to an existing loom that allows for it to weave out complex patterns. Basically an add on/upgrade. I suspect all modern mills have jacquard technology and would just use it to weave everything and anything because of how efficient it is, meaning they can still weave out simple solids and striped patterns.

btw all grenadines are jacquards

Sorry, C, was on a trip to Florida. I don't think I've taken in everything, but it seems to me that technically "jacquard" as applied to ties should mean, woven on a jacquard loom. If grenadines are jacquards, then patterns aren't necessary for jacquards! It's not even clear that jacquard must yield patterns that are raised. No jacquards are printed, however. .

Then there's industry/sales person use of "jacquard" which seems to be all over the place. I say that we drop it as a description of pattern of tie except for an imprecise way to refer to woven ties (some of which are not jacquards in the technical sense).

So, let's drop talk of jacquards as a clear category? Thus, neats, medallions, printed, wovens, etc.

 

[Sam Hober]



Sorry, C, was on a trip to Florida. I don't think I've taken in everything, but it seems to me that technically "jacquard" as applied to ties should mean, woven on a jacquard loom. If grenadines are jacquards, then patterns aren't necessary for jacquards! It's not even clear that jacquard must yield patterns that are raised. No jacquards are printed, however. .

Then there's industry/sales person use of "jacquard" which seems to be all over the place. I say that we drop it as a description of pattern of tie except for an imprecise way to refer to woven ties (some of which are not jacquards in the technical sense).

So, let's drop talk of jacquards as a clear category? Thus, neats, medallions, printed, wovens, etc.

Yes.

One additional thought:

Printed silks (often twills) can be woven on a jacquard loom before being printed on.

This further shows that technically jacquards are a very large group of fabrics - very large...

Voltaire once said:

I may detest what you have to say but I will die for your right to say it - perhaps slightly exaggerated for this issue but you gentlemen get the idea.

For the historians out there something very interesting
:http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

 

[EliodA]



I can't quite tell without greater magnification—and 'raised' in the sense that Claghorn ("I think this is what I always thought of. Raised florets or patterns") and I have used the term is of course a matter of degree. 

Let's put it this way, if you close your eyes and run your fingers over it, can you feel the difference between the figure and the ground?

Cheers,

Ac

The surface is flat. There's only one shade of blue, but the blocks are rotated 90 degrees, so light reflects slightly different from them. The effect is much more subtle irl, almost a uniform blue with white dots.

@TweedyProf if we drop jacquard as a category, on to the next problematic definition: neats. When is a tie a neat?

 

[Claghorn]

A tie with a discernible, repeating printed pattern of shapes, one or several.

 

[EliodA]



A tie with a discernible, repeating printed pattern of shapes, one or several.

Now there's a definition! I believe a certain level of soporificness is also a requirement, or not necessarily?
And does it have to be a print?

 

[Claghorn]

I don't think soporificitude is a requirement. This is certainly a neat, but it is also certainly not soporific:

---

As far as being printed. Well. That's definitely up for discussion. I don't like the idea of extending "neat" to woven patterns, but if someone argued for "printed neat" and "woven [jacquard] neat," I probably wouldn't be able to muster up much of a defense.

 

[sprout2]

We say "neat print" for a reason -- "neat" is weave agnostic.

 

[EliodA]

^ Wow. That's a great tie. Capelli?
This is one of my favourite ties, but I thought the pattern is too busy to be classified as a neat:

Though I wouldn't know what else to call it...

 

[sprout2]

The bow tie? Yeah its Cappelli.
Cucito per Cappelli for Willy Wonka

 

[Claghorn]

The orange? Henry Carter

I definitely wouldn't consider the tie on the left a neat. Patterned, yes, but not with repeated shapes (but rather repeated lines...we wouldn't call a striped tie a neat, right?).

Dotted ties, printed or woven, I don't know. If someone wanted to say they weren't neats, that's fine by me (especially as "dotted ties" is certainly a category). If someone wanted to say that printed dots were neats, I also probably wouldn't object. If someone wanted to say printed and woven dots were neat, I'd object, but I probably wouldn't have good reason to (and would be objecting more to the woven element of the statement than the dotted).

Oh, you changed the picture. I'd consider that a neat, and a handsome one at that (the new picture). Maker? Could you put the original picture up too?

 

[sprout2]

Eliod's second pic is awesome. I want that tie.

 

[EliodA]



The orange? Henry Carter

I definitely wouldn't consider the tie on the left a neat. Patterned, yes, but not with repeated shapes (but rather repeated lines...we wouldn't call a striped tie a neat, right?).

Dotted ties, printed or woven, I don't know. If someone wanted to say they weren't neats, that's fine by me (especially as "dotted ties" is certainly a category). If someone wanted to say that printed dots were neats, I also probably wouldn't object. If someone wanted to say printed and woven dots were neat, I'd object, but I probably wouldn't have good reason to (and would be objecting more to the woven element of the statement than the dotted).

Oh, you changed the picture. I'd consider that a neat, and a handsome one at that (the new picture). Maker? Could you put the original picture up too?

Eliod's second pic is awesome. I want that tie.

I dunno where the original picture came from, it certainly wasn't mine. Weird. Anyway, the second one is from Sorella Fontana in Rome.