Cashmere Sweater Hierarchy

[Phileas Fogg]

Has anyone had experience with The Cashmere Shop's boutique in Toronto? Some of their offerings look comfortable, but I have no notion of their quality. The cashmere is from Mongolia, it seems.

I believe almost all cashmere is from Mongolia.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

I believe almost all cashmere is from Mongolia.

Silly mistake...I meant to write made in Mongolia. This is an early morning for me.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Silly mistake...I meant to write made in Mongolia. This is an early morning for me.

Ah! Sorry. As to your original question, never even heard of them.

 

[OrlandoMo]

May I ask how you know their mark-up? I see this figure being thrown around, but unsure where it came from.

I know some of their knitters, I'm working with them for a project with Archibald London. A cashmere sweater that sells for $1995, it costs them maximum $150 to make (and I'm exaggerating the cost). As said, it's amongst my favourite in terms of product, but I can't afford to pay for their marketing and their expensive business model.

@Phileas Fogg

 

[Sartorium]

I wanted to post a recent experience with N. Peal's MTO program. N. Peal is a great mid-high end priced cashmere knitwear company, but until recently I did not realize that you could order any of their products made to measure in custom colors, for the same price as their website. This is basically bespoke cashmere knitwear, made in England, for $300-500. I just recieved my first garment and it is awesome. I went in to the store on Madison, but I think the other way to do it would be to maybe order an off-the-rack garment, take it to a tailor and have the tailor recommend changes to the measurements, and then return the one you ordered and order another one with the altered measurements. Orders must be placed over the phone, and take 2-3 months. I just figured I would share that this exists and that is is awesome. I am very tall and for my whole life I have had trouble finding knitwear that fits correctly, and this is a great solution! I also would recommend Maison Cashmere's MTO, but it is decidedly more mid-range in quality and the selection is nowhere near as good. Good for basics, however.

FWIW, I contacted N. Peal recently and they said any measurement adjustments to their stock sizes will incur a 20% upcharge.

Articles of Style also released a made-to-measure program for their cashmere, knitted in Soffio yarn from Carriagi of Italy. Does anyone have comments on the quality of either the mill or Articles of Style's sweaters in general?

 

[rwtc]

I know some of their knitters, I'm working with them for a project with Archibald London. A cashmere sweater that sells for $1995, it costs them maximum $150 to make (and I'm exaggerating the cost). As said, it's amongst my favourite in terms of product, but I can't afford to pay for their marketing and their expensive business model.

@Phileas Fogg

That's very good to know, thank you. Do you happen to know their mark-up for coats? We are quite partial to them so it'll be interesting if it's also 10x.

 

[dieworkwear]

That's very good to know, thank you. Do you happen to know their mark-up for coats? We are quite partial to them so it'll be interesting if it's also 10x.

I assume the margins on their coats are even higher, given the price and the quality. Cuccinelli coats are factory-made and retail for anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000. A bespoke, benchmade coat from a Savile Row tailor will cost you about $5,000. Cheaper if you use a southern Italian tailor.

People buy into Cucineli not for the quality of the clothes, but for the romance and allure. A lot of what you're paying for is the idea of a lifestyle.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

^ They have a very specific aesthetic but I think they appeal more to women than they do to men. I have a few pieces that I've bought on deep discount which I'm pleased with, but would never dream of paying full price.

I'm more partial to Loro Piana for a variety of reasons. The look and style just appeals to me. It's more classic. I also like them because they are first and foremost fabric engineers. They control their supply chain from harvesting of the cashmere through to the finished product. It's expensive and an indulgence, but who cares. I like it.

By the way, their Storm System fabric is unrivaled.

 

[rwtc]

I assume the margins on their coats are even higher, given the price and the quality. Cuccinelli coats are factory-made and retail for anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000. A bespoke, benchmade coat from a Savile Row tailor will cost you about $5,000. Cheaper if you use a southern Italian tailor.

People buy into Cucineli not for the quality of the clothes, but for the romance and allure. A lot of what you're paying for is the idea of a lifestyle.

You make a generalization about the Cucinelli clientele, but we beg to differ. I have several coats and they're all full canvassed. They use double faced fabrics which we adore, as it is thick enough for Canadian winters. Especially nice on their cashmere coats. We have not found another brand that does this, but perhaps you can point the way. None of the cashmeres have pilling or signs of wear, while LP is showing wear for me.

Wife's and my own blazers are full canvassed (multiple), half canvassed (multiple), and fused (only one for women). Lapels are machine finished, but doesn't really matter to us because it's very neat. The fit is also phenomenal for something RTW. In a womenswear perspective, we haven't seen canvassing on other brands besides Attolini and Kiton, but we like the cut on BC more vs those brands, so we went with mostly BC. Kiton has some more handwork on the interior vs BC, but doesn't really make a material difference to us. Kiton uses machine stitching too on parts of the lining, so not a big deal for us.

 

[dieworkwear]

You make a generalization about the Cucinelli clientele, but we beg to differ. I have several coats and they're all full canvassed. They use double faced fabrics which we adore, as it is thick enough for Canadian winters. Especially nice on their cashmere coats. We have not found another brand that does this, but perhaps you can point the way. None of the cashmeres have pilling or signs of wear, while LP is showing wear for me.

Wife's and my own blazers are full canvassed (multiple), half canvassed (multiple), and fused (only one for women). Lapels are machine finished, but doesn't really matter to us because it's very neat. The fit is also phenomenal for something RTW. In a womenswear perspective, we haven't seen canvassing on other brands besides Attolini and Kiton, but we like the cut on BC more vs those brands, so we went with mostly BC. Kiton has some more handwork on the interior vs BC, but doesn't really make a material difference to us. Kiton uses machine stitching too on parts of the lining, so not a big deal for us.

Isn't your description just of a factory-made coat? Nothing wrong with factory-made clothes, but if you're talking about margins, $5000 - $10,000 is a lot of money to pay for ready-to-wear, factory-made clothes.

You can get double-faced fabrics, cashmere fabrics, and full canvassed coats from a tailor for much cheaper. I was only speaking on the ratio between price and "quality." I also think quality is a nebulous concept and people should just buy what makes them happy. But if we're talking about traditional and generic measures of quality, a Cucinelli coat -- same with Kiton and others -- seems very overpriced. They are brands.

 

[rwtc]

^ They have a very specific aesthetic but I think they appeal more to women than they do to men. I have a few pieces that I've bought on deep discount which I'm pleased with, but would never dream of paying full price.

I'm more partial to Loro Piana for a variety of reasons. The look and style just appeals to me. It's more classic. I also like them because they are first and foremost fabric engineers. They control their supply chain from harvesting of the cashmere through to the finished product. It's expensive and an indulgence, but who cares. I like it.

By the way, their Storm System fabric is unrivaled.

We like Cucinelli because it looks more contemporary than LP actually. The Horsey jacket looks old menish to us... I think my first sale on SF was a Horsey jacket many years ago.

I hear a good number of Cucinelli uses Zegna cloth.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

We like Cucinelli because it looks more contemporary than LP actually. The Horsey jacket looks old menish to us... I think my first sale on SF was a Horsey jacket many years ago.

I hear a good number of Cucinelli uses Zegna cloth.

I somewhat like old menish...old manish too.

 

[rwtc]

Isn't your description just of a factory-made coat? Nothing wrong with factory-made clothes, but if you're talking about margins, $5000 - $10,000 is a lot of money to pay for ready-to-wear, factory-made clothes.

You can get double-faced fabrics, cashmere fabrics, and full canvassed coats from a tailor for much cheaper. I was only speaking on the ratio between price and "quality." I also think quality is a nebulous concept and people should just buy what makes them happy. But if we're talking about traditional and generic measures of quality, a Cucinelli coat -- same with Kiton and others -- seems very overpriced. They are brands.

My description of Cucinelli's clothes is that of a well made, factory made garment. Your original argument was that their clientele don't purchase from them for quality. On the contrary, the garments themselves are well made. Certainly much better than the poorly designed stuff that "contemporary" designers pump out, and the quality of their tailored clothing is quite lacking.

 

[dieworkwear]

My description of Cucinelli's clothes is that of a well made, factory made garment. Your original argument was that their clientele don't purchase from them for quality. On the contrary, the garments themselves are well made. Certainly much better than the poorly designed stuff that "contemporary" designers pump out, and the quality of their tailored clothing is quite lacking.

I don't doubt they're well-made. I was only saying that they charge $5,000 to $10,000 for a ready-to-wear factory product. I don't know what are the actual margins on their cashmere sweaters. I assume a good amount of the cost goes into their marketing and storefronts, which help fuel the fantasy and allure that brings in customers. I don't say this with disdain, as I think fantasy is an important element of fashion. I assume the margins on coats are much higher, if only because the price is considerably higher ($10k for coats, $2k for sweaters on the upper limits). It doesn't take $5k to make a factory-made coat, just as it doesn't take $1k to make a sweater if you're talking about pure manufacturing costs.

 

[rwtc]

RTW is convenient because you don't need to do multiple fittings and there's no wait time.

Yes, the brand name is important, but it also denotes an expectation of quality based on past purchases.

For example: RTW women's tailored clothing. To our knowledge, there's only BC, Kiton, and Attolini, that produces canvassed and well designed clothing in a classic style for women. All ears if anyone can point out another designer that produces women's tailored clothing that's canvassed. We haven't found anyone else that fulfills this criteria. The alternative would be to go for bespoke, but having to wait for months and having to try different shops and risk the garment turn out bad.