The unofficial Drake's London Appreciation Thread

[dieworkwear]

Seems odd to get hung up on labels when Drake's is re-branding everything. Has anyone compared Drake's tailoring from Belvest, Caruso, and Lardini to determine if there is in fact a difference?

Nearly every factory will have different levels of make. It's very difficult, if not impossible, for a consumer to compare jackets like this because they don't have any background in manufacturing or tailoring.

To give an example, at one suit factory, the garments for Polo Ralph Lauren are produced alongside Men's Wearhouse. Obviously, PRL suits are very different from Men's Wearhouse. Factories aren't just stamping out the same item and allowing companies to rebrand them. They help a company realize a certain visions, so they offer different services across a range of price points.

I don't like linking to my old posts because it seems grossly self promotional, but here are two relevant posts where I talked to Jeffery D about this.

Why It’s Hard to Determine Quality

There are probably no fewer than a hundred books about classic men’s clothing, and the majority of them will have...

putthison.com

Does it Mean Anything to Know Where Something Was Manufactured?

A few months ago, I was talking to Jeffery Diduch, the Vice President of Technical Design at Hickey Freeman. One...

putthison.com

Yep. Tailoring was fully canvassed with Belvest and Caruso. The Lardini pieces, while nice, are half canvassed. That's a pretty significant step down in quality, imo.

Just because a garment is half-canvassed doesn't necessarily mean it's lower quality. Sometimes a garment is half-canvassed because it helps make it lighterweight. Sometimes a bit of fusing is preferred because it helps stabilize a cloth.

Mark Cho has a good video here showing why sometimes a jacket might be fused.

Instead of trying to discern quality, like you're buying computer equipment and trying to compare specs, consumers would be better off just developing their eye for what looks good on them.

I have some bespoke sport coats that are half canvassed.

 

[GoergeH]

Yep. Tailoring was fully canvassed with Belvest and Caruso. The Lardini pieces, while nice, are half canvassed. That's a pretty significant step down in quality, imo.

There seems to be some difference of opinion on this. In 2016, Simon Crompton blogged about Drake's tailoring. In his piece, he stated that Drake's jackets are made by Belvest and half-canvassed. Being a journalist, I'm (perhaps, foolishly) inclined to believe Simon did his due diligence.

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2016/03/drakes-soft-stylish-jackets.html

 

[othertravel]

Nearly every factory will have different levels of make. It's very difficult, if not impossible, for a consumer to compare jackets like this because they don't have any background in manufacturing or tailoring.

To give an example, at one suit factory, the garments for Polo Ralph Lauren are produced alongside Men's Wearhouse. Obviously, PRL suits are very different from Men's Wearhouse. Factories aren't just stamping out the same item and allowing companies to rebrand them. They help a company realize a certain visions, so they offer different services across a range of price points.

I don't like linking to my old posts because it seems grossly self promotional, but here are two relevant posts where I talked to Jeffery D about this.

Why It’s Hard to Determine Quality

There are probably no fewer than a hundred books about classic men’s clothing, and the majority of them will have...

putthison.com

Does it Mean Anything to Know Where Something Was Manufactured?

A few months ago, I was talking to Jeffery Diduch, the Vice President of Technical Design at Hickey Freeman. One...

putthison.com

Just because a garment is half-canvassed doesn't necessarily mean it's lower quality. Sometimes a garment is half-canvassed because it helps make it lighterweight. Sometimes a bit of fusing is preferred because it helps stabilize a cloth.

Mark Cho has a good video here showing why sometimes a jacket might be fused.

Instead of trying to discern quality, like you're buying computer equipment and trying to compare specs, consumers would be better off just developing their eye for what looks good on them.

I have some bespoke sport coats that are half canvassed.

I don't disagree. Lardini has their own line of full-canvass garments as well. And I've seen Caruso-made garments that were half-canvassed as (made for other designers).

That said, unless Drake's decides to elaborate on its intent when it switched to half canvassing (they're obviously under no obligation to do so), we can only assume it was either because they want to increase margins, or because (as you mention above), they were looking to stabilize the cloth. I would infer the former, only because the styling hasn't changed much, while their maker has.

I like their tailoring line, and am sorely tempted by the DB jacket they have on sale.

 

[dieworkwear]

I don't disagree. Lardini has their own line of full-canvass garments as well. And I've seen Caruso-made garments that were half-canvassed as well (made for other designers).

That said, unless Drake's decides to elaborate on its intent when it switched to half canvassing, we can only assume it was either because they want to increase margins, or because (as you mention above), they were looking to stabilize the cloth. I would infer the former, only because the styling hasn't changed much, while their maker has.

I've never understood why menswear guys don't just buy clothes the way everyone else buys clothes: put on a garment, see how it looks on you, and decide if you're willing to pay the asking price. This is the best way to build a wardrobe and the only one that makes sense.

 

[othertravel]

There seems to be some difference of opinion on this. In 2016, Simon Crompton blogged about Drake's tailoring. In his piece, he stated that Drake's jackets are made by Belvest and half-canvassed. Being a journalist, I'm (perhaps, foolishly) inclined to believe Simon did his due diligence.

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2016/03/drakes-soft-stylish-jackets.html

Thanks for the clarification. I've seen some of the Caruso pieces being listed as full canvass, but never handled one myself.

 

[GoergeH]

Thank you for the informative post, dieworkwear.

 

[othertravel]

I've never understood why menswear guys don't just buy clothes the way everyone else buys clothes: put on a garment, see how it looks on you, and decide if you're willing to pay the asking price. This is the best way to build a wardrobe and the only one that makes sense.

Finite resources dictate a value-added approach!

But in all seriousness, the question was asked about whether the construction of the garments has changed. It's not an inappropriate question. I believe that consumers should have the knowledge to help them make decisions they're comfortable with. In the case of menswear, it's not uncommon to have sales associates, intentionally or unintentionally, give you false information about a garment (its happened to me a few times, and I appreciate the knowledge gained from this forum). To Drake's credit, they're upfront about it.

But it can't be denied that sometimes companies use a half canvass to save on costs.

 

[whorishconsumer]

Having recently purchased, tried and returned two actual Belvest jackets, this Drake's jacket I just received fits the best and is therefore of much higher esteem in my book. It feels like half-canvas, but honestly it could be fused.

If I wanted to derail this conversation, this is where I might ask what a canvas is supposed to feel like.

 

[RickyTakhar]

I've never understood why menswear guys don't just buy clothes the way everyone else buys clothes: put on a garment, see how it looks on you, and decide if you're willing to pay the asking price. This is the best way to build a wardrobe and the only one that makes sense.

100% agree Derek, although I would say Drake's has declined slightly in talking about it's product. Brands like Stoffa, Private White etc talk about design decisions on why a specific product has been designed the way it is. Initially looking at the armoury range they seem heavily priced, but listening to Mark's reasoning behind the design shows how much thought has gone into each product.

So if a garment is half canvassed your right it could be a design decision, but people value different things. I have a few Drake's shirts, the price's have gone up for the 3 shirt offer but has the quality increased? Maybe, i'd be willing to pay the prices if fabrics were switched from house to Alumo for instance. But i've stopped buying shirts because I can find better value elsewhere now.

I must say though, Drake's has now become my most searched on Ebay

 

[GoergeH]

I like the linen jacket I bought recently as well.

 

[dieworkwear]

If I wanted to derail this conversation, this is where I might ask what a canvas is supposed to feel like.

It might be good to start with a primer before answering your question.

Traditionally, jackets are made with three layers of material. You have haircloth, which is a cloth that has had strands of horsetail hair woven in. Horsetail hair is very stiff and wiry, which is why it’s perfect for lending structure. This runs from the bottom of your rib cage to your shoulders. It's used to give the chest some shape. In the photo below, you can see haircloth and wrapped haircloth on the left side. Notice that they're "bouncier."

Then you have wool canvas, which is the taupe colored material (second from right). Finally, not pictured here, you have domette, flannel, or felt, which will be used to pad the haircloth, so the wiry horsehair doesn't poke through.

Some tailors, however, and especially Southern Italian tailors, will remove the haircloth so the jacket feels softer. Now you just have the body canvas. You still need this to give the garment some shape, otherwise it will hang like a shirt. I have a few Italian sport coats that are just canvas, no haircloth. Some are also half-canvassed.

The far-left material here (the black stuff) is fusing. Sometimes this is stuck to the back of a material to help stabilize it.

When you have a fully canvassed jacket, the canvas will run from the shoulder to the hem. Sometimes a very light skin fusible is used on the back, as well, to help stabilize the cloth. It depends on the shell being used. Here you can see the canvas and felt.

The upside to a fully canvassed construction is that the canvas will give a nice bloom to the lapels, making the jacket look more three-dimensional, and give some support to the front. The downside is that this type of construction is very expensive, both in terms of the materials and labor required, and if poorly executed, it could cause the fronts to pucker.

About forty years ago, a German company came up with a new type of construction: fusibles. A fused jacket is much like a full-canvassed garment in that it still has the two outer shell layers, a chest piece, and some felt. Replacing the floating canvas, however, is a fusible interlining. When heated and pressed, this interlining’s special resin will melt and bond to any cloth, thus adding a similar kind of support that canvas does. The upside to this is that we cut costs. It’s quick, easy, and requires little to no skill on the part of the operator. The downside, as you can imagine, is that it slightly stiffens the cloth and doesn’t provide as nice of a support as animal hair. Lapels don’t “bloom” in the same way, but rather look flat and lifeless. It also used to be the case that fused garments carried a risk of delamination and bubbling over time, but the technology has come far enough where such cases are rare. Here you can see a layout of a fully fused jacket:

Finally, we have half-canvassed garments, which are the compromise. Here, the front of the jacket is fused (since you still need to stabilize the fronts), but the fusible doesn’t extend to the lapel area, where you want that kind of bloom and structure that animal hair gives. Instead, the lapels will have a canvas in it like a full-canvas garment. Here, you try to get the benefits of both methods, while minimizing the cons.

Sometimes this is a way to save cost, as the manufacturer doesn't have to use canvas on the bottom half. Sometimes it's done to make the jacket lighter weight. The point of the canvas is to give the garment some structure.

Depending on how your garment constructed, you may not be able to tell whether a garment is half-canvassed or fully fused. If you can take a peek inside, then you can try to spot these layers. This sometimes possible on unlined garments.

If the garment is lined, however, then you can do the pinch test. Go a few inches below the buttoning point, and pinch the shell fabric from both ends. See if you can feel whether there's a distinct layer floating in-between. If you can feel something floating, that's the canvas. You know this is the canvas because below the buttoning point, there should be nothing except fusing or canvas, and fusing is glued to the back of the cloth.

If you feel this material, then your jacket is fully canvassed. If you can't feel this material, however, then you'll ask: well how about I try to pinch above the buttoning point so I can tell if this is fully fused or half canvassed? You can't do this because the canvas on a half-canvassed garment is tacked onto the chest piece (the haircloth). If you feel a floating layer above the buttoning point, it may not mean anything.

Sometimes a sales associate will be able to tell you how the garment is constructed. Most people, however, are better off just putting on the jacket and deciding whether it looks good on them. As Mark explains in that video, sometimes a garment is fused for a certain effect.

 

[whorishconsumer]

Having recently purchased, tried and returned two actual Belvest jackets, this Drake's jacket I just received fits the best and is therefore of much higher esteem in my book. It feels like half-canvas, but honestly it could be fused.

If I wanted to derail this conversation, this is where I might ask what a canvas is supposed to feel like.

Ok, I'll go there. From Simon Crompton's post: "The jackets all have a floating (half canvas), hand finishing around the collar and sleeve, and a neat unlined look inside."

My reading elsewhere has stated that floating chest is distinct from canvassing, and, in fact, inferior to half canvas. But, I guess my real question is: are you supposed to be able to feel the canvas separate of the opposing pieces of garment between which it sits, or is the canvas normally affixed (one might say fused) to one side or the other?

 

[whorishconsumer]

It might be good to start with a primer before answering your question.

Traditionally, jackets are made with three layers of material. You have haircloth, which is a cloth that has had strands of horsetail hair woven in. Horsetail hair is very stiff and wiry, which is why it’s perfect for lending structure. This runs from the bottom of your rib cage to your shoulders. It's used to give the chest some shape. In the photo below, you can see haircloth and wrapped haircloth on the left side. Notice that they're "bouncier."

Then you have wool canvas, which is the taupe colored material (second from right). Finally, not pictured here, you have domette, flannel, or felt, which will be used to pad the haircloth, so the wiry horsehair doesn't poke through.

Some tailors, however, and especially Southern Italian tailors, will remove the haircloth so the jacket feels softer. Now you just have the body canvas. You still need this to give the garment some shape, otherwise it will hang like a shirt. I have a few Italian sport coats that are just canvas, no haircloth. Some are also half-canvassed.

The far-left material here (the black stuff) is fusing. Sometimes this is stuck to the back of a material to help stabilize it.

View attachment 1385302

When you have a fully canvassed jacket, the canvas will run from the shoulder to the hem. Sometimes a very light skin fusible is used on the back, as well, to help stabilize the cloth. It depends on the shell being used. Here you can see the canvas and felt.

The upside to a fully canvassed construction is that the canvas will give a nice bloom to the lapels, making the jacket look more three-dimensional, and give some support to the front. The downside is that this type of construction is very expensive, both in terms of the materials and labor required, and if poorly executed, it could cause the fronts to pucker.


View attachment 1385303


With a fully fused jacket, you don't have the canvas. It's just a fusible.
View attachment 1385304

A half-canvassed garment will be half-way between these two systems. The canvas goes from the shoulder down to the buttoning point, where it makes the biggest impact. Sometimes this is a way to save cost, as the manufacturer doesn't have to use canvas on the bottom half. Sometimes it's done to make the jacket lighter weight. The point of the canvas is to give the garment some structure.

View attachment 1385305
Depending on how your garment constructed, you may not be able to tell whether a garment is half-canvassed or fully fused. If you can take a peek inside, then you can try to spot these layers. This sometimes possible on unlined garments.

If the garment is lined, however, then you can do the pinch test. Go a few inches below the buttoning point, and pinch the shell fabric from both ends. See if you can feel whether there's a distinct layer floating in-between. If you can feel something floating, that's the canvas. You know this is the canvas because below the buttoning point, there should be nothing except fusing or canvas, and fusing is glued to the back of the cloth.

If you feel this material, then your jacket is fully canvassed. If you can't feel this material, however, then you'll ask: well how about I try to pinch above the buttoning point so I can tell if this is fully fused or half canvassed? You can't do this because the canvas on a half-canvassed garment is tacked onto the chest piece (the haircloth). If you feel a floating layer above the buttoning point, it may not mean anything.

Sometimes a sales associate will be able to tell you how the garment is constructed. Most people, however, are better off just putting on the jacket and deciding whether it looks good on them. As Mark explains in that video, sometimes a garment is fused for a certain effect.

Very informative, thank you. And that answers part of my subsequent question.

So, canvased garments may have some degree of fusing as well and half-canvased always have this? What, then, is the concern with fused-only garments? The quality of drape and (older) propensity for "bubbling"?

As for that something else floating in the chest region, what is that? What is a "floating chest"?

 

[dieworkwear]

Very informative, thank you. And that answers part of my subsequent question.

So, canvased garments may have some degree of fusing as well and half-canvased always have this? What, then, is the concern with fused-only garments? The quality of drape and (older) propensity for "bubbling"?

As for that something else floating in the chest region, what is that? What is a "floating chest"?

If you've ever felt a very lightweight, silky worsted wool, say in something like 7oz or something, you'll notice that it feels very slippery and thin. If you don't back it with something, sometimes the material doesn't hang well. So even on a very high-end, fully-canvassed garment, the shell fabric may require some kind of backing. The vast majority of fully-canvassed garments, however, will not be made with a fusible throughout the body.

To answer your next question, fusing has a bad reputation. Part of this is because it sounds bad. The second is because, when the technology was first introduced about forty years ago, fused garments sometimes puckered when subjected to heat and humidity. The fusible would essentially become "unstuck" from the shell, which caused bubbling. Thirdly, fusibles are what you'll most commonly find in lower-end garments. So they have a bad reputation.

However, over the years, fusing technology has greatly improved. I've never heard of fusible becoming unstuck. Shirt collars are also commonly fused. So are many high-end garments, such as Justo Gimeno's Teba jackets. And the Ring Jacket Mark shows in that video.

A floating chest piece refers to the haircloth. Think of it like plated armor. In the first photo I posted, you can see how the haircloth is bouncier and has more shape to it than wool canvas (kind of limp) and the black fusible (very limp). Some tailors will use haircloth at the chest and shoulders, so this area has some shape and support. Some tailors remove this piece entirely because it's not the look they want to achieve.

IMO, the best indicator of quality is always your previous experience with that brand. Barring that, however, you can go off the brand's reputation or the store's reputation. Most people shouldn't try to infer quality, however, and instead just go off how a garment looks and feels. Tailoring is more like an art than a science. A designer or tailor will have hundreds of steps that can go into making a garment. On some Gold Standard level, there is a "best way" to make a jacket with no compromise. But on a lower-end of the price spectrum, compromises will always have to be made. It will be up to that designer to figure out which mix of choices allows him or her to achieve a vision that works.

But getting to that point isn't straightforward. I think it's like making a dish. If you have to meet a certain price point, you may decide to cut back on a certain type of olive oil or use a different kind of crushed spice. Or you decide you hire a less renowned chef. These decisions will be very subjective and often involve technical things consumers either can't see or won't understand. In the end, however, the consumer judges a dish on it tastes, or garment on how it looks, and that's the only test that matters anyway.

 

[othertravel]

I’ve noticed there’s a bit of canvass one-upmanship. TF has 3 layers of canvas for their Windsor model, but RL is advertising 4 layers of canvas for their Gregory.