The Ultimate "HARDCORE" Shoe Appreciation Thread (Bespoke only)

[DWFII]



It's this stuff.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Looks to me like "shrunken shoulder." Or something similar. The which may be a reverse cow but probably not a calf. If it is indeed shoulder, it will also be a bit looser and probably rougher ('hairier") than a really good reverse calf.

The real problem is that the "shrinking" leaves a bit of surplus in the leather--some of which can and will be removed during lasting. But combined with the looser fiber mat of shoulder, shrunken leather tends to open up as it is worn. Meaning that if it is not fit pretty snug, it could possibly be too loose after some wear.

I could be completely off-base...all I'm working from here is a photo...but FWIW--food for thought.

the fit needs to be pretty exacting though, without the linings and side stiffeners there's no "guts" to spare any blushes.

Exactly.

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[jerrybrowne]

Thanks for all of the input guys! I have a feeling that the construction would be similar to Bengal's RTW unlined loafers, but I'm now leaning towards having a very thin calf lining put in anyhow just to be safe. Or maybe a kid glace lining as this worked well on a pair of croc loafers I had made....

 

[DWFII]



Thanks for all of the input guys! I have a feeling that the construction would be similar to Bengal's RTW unlined loafers, but I'm now leaning towards having a very thin calf lining put in anyhow just to be safe. Or maybe a kid glace lining as this worked well on a pair of croc loafers I had made....

Probably a good idea for all the reasons ntempleman stated.

For clarity, I've seen a few pair of unlined bespoke (and not bespoke) loafers, as well. I know it is a relatively common approach. I just don't like it--personal opinion.

The one thing that always struck me...aside from the issues of structure that nick mentioned...is that if the flesh is exposed on the inside of the shoe, two issues arise: First, the foot doesn't have a smooth surface on the inside. The foot doesn't slide into the shoe as easily (probably insignificant in the larger scheme of things), and any rubbing is exasperated.

Second, the flesh tends to collect dirt that cannot be easily removed simply because it becomes embedded in the fibers of the flesh. After a little while you'll see this even on dark leather where the colour has not only gotten darker but sometimes glazed with accumulated...what? Can we call it "suint?" (slightly tongue-in-cheek)

Conditioning the inside of an unlined shoe only makes the problem worse.

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[ntempleman]

In the good old days, it wasn't uncommon for a bit of cotton twill to be put into service as a lining material on the vamp or, in the even older good old days, the entire lining of a button boot
Makes for a nice, lightweight and cool shoe while the roughness isn't an issue particularly. I've made that button boot with a cotton lining as an experiment too, it worked surprisingly well - once I'd figured out how to solve the headache of the "whole cut" cotton lining.

 

[DWFII]



In the good old days, it wasn't uncommon for a bit of cotton twill to be put into service as a lining material on the vamp or, in the even older good old days, the entire lining of a button boot
Makes for a nice, lightweight and cool shoe while the roughness isn't an issue particularly. I've made that button boot with a cotton lining as an experiment too, it worked surprisingly well - once I'd figured out how to solve the headache of the "whole cut" cotton lining.

I've seen a fair amount of that in early 20th century "Union Made" women's work. Seems like it was always in sort of "run-of-the-mill" stuff, though.

Have you seen it in high end or bespoke work (other than your own, I mean) ?

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[ntempleman]

I've only ever really seen bespoke, but seen it in quite a bit of the old examples from a range of West End firms - either show pieces or customers own shoes that've stood up to the vagaries of time. The cotton lasted better than the leather in a lot of cases.

I've heard various reasons for it, some talk of a leather saving practice in times of scarcity, some say it was the standard before that. I'll probably never find out exactly why, but I'm fairly sure I can believe why it stopped - I was told customers eventually raised questions about the "cheap" materials used for their shoes.

 

[shoefan]

I believe Frank Jones is of the opinion that a linen (or cotton?) twill lining is superior to a leather lining for the vamp section of the lining. I have an old pair of Stetson full brogues that have a twill vamp lining.

 

[bengal-stripe]



Second, the flesh tends to collect dirt that cannot be easily removed simply because it becomes embedded in the fibers of the flesh. After a little while you'll see this even on dark leather where the colour has not only gotten darker but sometimes glazed with accumulated...what? Can we call it "suint?" (slightly tongue-in-cheek)

I'm not mysophobic, so I would call that 'patina' and I don't find it unattractive. After all, you have the same "problem" with fully lined loafers, as normally the lining leather is reversed (flesh side out) in the heel section of a slip-on shoe, to give more friction and less heel slippage.

There are plenty of heavy boots which are traditionally unlined: utility- and hiking boots as well as the Household Cavalry boots.



As these type of boots are traditionally made from very heavy and thick cow hide, maybe 3 mm (1/8 inch) for the Household Cavalry boots, there is no problem of them losing their shape.

Another method for light summer shoe might be the use of perforated leather linings, which is commonly used for orthopaedic footwear.

 

[DWFII]



I'm not mysophobic, so I would call that 'patina' and I don't find it unattractive. After all, you have the same "problem" with fully lined loafers, as normally the lining leather is reversed (flesh side out) in the heel section of a slip-on shoe, to give more friction and less heel slippage.

I don't think mysophobic enters into it....although it's hard to tell (but perhaps not impossible ) on the Internet who is obsessive-compulsive and who is not. I suspect that shoemakers...who work with dead animal skins...are low on the list of probable candidates.

But years ago, one of my teachers told me that the shoemaker must always be mindful of what the shoes will look like after they have been worn for a year...or two or three...and choose/plan/work accordingly. I suspect that applies to anything that has a human maker--the mindfulness and the choosing, at least.

For that very reason I don't turn the lining counter flesh-side out anymore. I've tried both ways, both on custom work and on my own shoes, and the only significant difference it seems to make (on a well fitted shoe) is that...esp. with a light natural coloured veg lining such as calf or kip...the lining counter tends to turn grey and clumps of fiber glaze over. Admittedly, I don't change my hose three times a day but I don't think that would make much difference either. It's life that soils the lining...nothing else.

Knowing that...and being mindful...I can choose to build in the potential for unsightliness or try...as far as humanly possible...to preserve the look of the new shoe and the original colour of the leather for as long as humanly possible.

Others may, perhaps, choose differently.

Another method for light summer shoe might be the use of perforated leather linings, which is commonly used for orthopaedic footwear.

That would be my preference...compared to fabric, at least.

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[j ingevaldsson]

My pair from Polish bespoke maker Jan Kielman was polished this evening, snapped a pic afterwards:

 

[chogall]



Probably a good idea for all the reasons ntempleman stated.

For clarity, I've seen a few pair of unlined bespoke (and not bespoke) loafers, as well. I know it is a relatively common approach. I just don't like it--personal opinion.

The one thing that always struck me...aside from the issues of structure that nick mentioned...is that if the flesh is exposed on the inside of the shoe, two issues arise: First, the foot doesn't have a smooth surface on the inside. The foot doesn't slide into the shoe as easily (probably insignificant in the larger scheme of things), and any rubbing is exasperated.

Second, the flesh tends to collect dirt that cannot be easily removed simply because it becomes embedded in the fibers of the flesh. After a little while you'll see this even on dark leather where the colour has not only gotten darker but sometimes glazed with accumulated...what? Can we call it "suint?" (slightly tongue-in-cheek)

Conditioning the inside of an unlined shoe only makes the problem worse.

--

Not completely unlined but unlined.

 

[DWFII]



Not completely unlined but unlined.

This is a loose fitting shoe with soft leather for the upper. Probably never gets laced even close to snug, much less tight.

Nevertheless that strip of lining that backs and reinforces the facings creates a lump/ridge along its inner edge.

I'm sure it doesn't bother you but it's not the best solution/practice...IMO.

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[Maessive]

Hungarian shoemaker Rozsnyai. First try, will do again.

Nile crocodile, starting from crust. Colour, model and finishing made to my taste.

Not everyone's taste, I'm sure I'd classify them as bad ass.

Sizing with drawings and foam box. Very helpful service, we have changed design and skin cut to make this happen. Throat skin was used. Price was reasonable.

They make shoes with pride. Robust, stylish and well finished shoes. I was impressed. Communication was very smooth.

If you need more info, pls PM.

 

[jerrybrowne]



Not completely unlined but unlined.

Let's see the whole shoe!

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Hungarian shoemaker Rozsnyai. First try, will do again.

Nile crocodile, starting from crust. Colour, model and finishing made to my taste.

Not everyone's taste, I'm sure

I'd classify them as bad ass.








Sizing with drawings and foam box. Very helpful service, we have changed design and skin cut to make this happen. Throat skin was used. Price was reasonable.

They make shoes with pride. Robust, stylish and well finished shoes. I was impressed. Communication was very smooth.

If you need more info, pls PM.

Nice! Sole stitching looks much tighter than on their RTW/MTO. So it was kind of a "distance bespoke thing" then?