The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

[Nat Jag]

Interesting the subject of wing collars, what is the correct way to wear them. I assume you tuck the collar under the bow tie, yet I've seen some with the collar above the bow tie.

 

[Nat Jag]

You're right of course that a wing collar has been worn with black tie historically. I think the problem (perhaps unstated by the poster you replied to) comes down to (1) people not understanding that a wing collar is more formal and thus fits better with peak lapels (as opposed to shawl, or, *shudder*, notch) and a waistcoat (vs cummerbund) and (2) people not wearing a proper detachable wing collar (the way it was typically done historically). So there's a lot of badly done wing collars out there, whereas it's harder to screw up a turndown collar.

I have a notch lapel of my main black tie outfit, even though I knew the rules, I ordered the notch lapel. My peak DJ has been relegated to the back of my wardrobe, also it was OTR and too large. I associate peak lapels with a confident person that wants to make a statement. I'm a photographer so I prefer to keep it a little understated, but still need a DJ. Perhaps I should just hold that thought of peak lapels for lounge suits and get my next DJ with a peak lapel.

 

[Andy57]

You're right of course that a wing collar has been worn with black tie historically. I think the problem (perhaps unstated by the poster you replied to) comes down to (1) people not understanding that a wing collar is more formal and thus fits better with peak lapels (as opposed to shawl, or, *shudder*, notch) and a waistcoat (vs cummerbund) and (2) people not wearing a proper detachable wing collar (the way it was typically done historically). So there's a lot of badly done wing collars out there, whereas it's harder to screw up a turndown collar.

This is the key issue with most wing collar shirts.

In order to stand up properly when a tie is tied around it, a wing collar has to be very stiff. In order to be stiff enough, it has to be heavily starched. A detachable color can be starched to be extremely stiff and can then be attached to a shirt which is not so heavily starched. An attached wing collar, on the other hand, cannot be starched heavily enough if you want to actually be able to wear the shirt. The consequence is that the wing collar just collapses under the tie and looks less than ideal. Another common problem is that people who insist on a wing collar often use an adjustable bow tie which is also not a great look.

 

[covskin]

Here are a couple of pics from the second formal night when, I am slightly embarrassed to admit, I wore a conventional white poplin shirt with MOP buttons from Harvie & Hudson.

Time marches on, nothing wrong with a small change each generation. There were always lots of older-looking details around when I started wearing it. Better to lose a detail than to add one.

 

[98muted]

Wore a new Paul Stuart (Phineas Cole) tux at my wedding. Probably could have had a couple of alterations done, but the fabric is awesome and the cut is really nice (modern but decently traditional)

 

[archibaldleach]

I have a notch lapel of my main black tie outfit, even though I knew the rules, I ordered the notch lapel. My peak DJ has been relegated to the back of my wardrobe, also it was OTR and too large. I associate peak lapels with a confident person that wants to make a statement. I'm a photographer so I prefer to keep it a little understated, but still need a DJ. Perhaps I should just hold that thought of peak lapels for lounge suits and get my next DJ with a peak lapel.

I tend to think that it's deviating from a norm or prescribed set of rules that's more likely to make a statement. I can see how you'd have those feelings about lounge suits with peak lapels (though I do think they are becoming a bit more common). With black tie, it's pretty hard to make a statement with something that is part of a normal rig. Notch at this point is common enough that, even if I don't like it personally even without the rules, I wouldn't put it down as something that makes a statement one way or another to most people. Even a lot of pretty bad OTR / rental multiple button nightmares have peak lapels, so peak is not really a statement look or one that I'd think takes much extra confidence. I suppose doing black tie well (including stuff likes clothes fitting) is a statement, but would hope elegance inspires confidence rather than requires it.

For me, I looked at a black tie rig acquisition as an opportunity to honor tradition and also to wear something that would be hard to place in any other context, namely a shawl lapel jacket. I suppose I could have gone with peak, but I can see myself ordering a SB peak lapel suit (I have peak lapel suits, but DB) one day.

 

[am55]

Interesting the subject of wing collars, what is the correct way to wear them. I assume you tuck the collar under the bow tie, yet I've seen some with the collar above the bow tie.

We've had this argument here before. I'm in Butler's camp: historically the wing collar descends from the imperial collar, which was bent a bit at the front to breathe easier, and therefore the collar is literally "above" the bow tie in that the whole of the fold sits above the tie vertically (not in front of it).

I've almost never seen a detachable collar high enough, and the proportions would probably stick out today as they are quite different from the usual soft wing collars and turndown collars worn with black tie, and the turndown collars worn with lounge suits that people have gotten used to.

@Mr Knightley thank you for your harmonious 6x1, it makes me think about considering one again. A very different look from Ralph Lauren's indeed.

 

[JJ Katz]

On the "tie before or behind a wing collar" issue:

- The line of reasoning above seems logical, though logic seldom applies to the history of clothing.
- There is plenty of evidence of both ways of wearing it at the time that wing collars and white/black tie were worn a lot.
- To me that adds up to saying that it's dashed silly to get very prescriptive about it. I've worn it both ways though I think that "wings behind the bow" looks belter on me.

On the "floppy wing collar unless it's detachable & super-stiff"

I simply have not found that to be the case with properly lined, reasonably starched attached-collar ***** from Budd.

I agree, of course, that it makes a correctly-sized tie necessary, not one of those slippy adjustable things, but, again, a good supplier will produced sized bow ties at least in black.

I also agree that a wing collar looks good with a very 'korrrekt' rig, including waistcoat, the sort of 'almost white tie' rig people wore in the Golden Age.
With 'alternative' or more relaxed DJ, a turn-down is better.
The setting also makes a difference . For instance, Andy57 seems to wear black tie admirably often and not just at formal events and in that setting a more 'Edwardian' DJ rig would probably be de trop.

 

[archibaldleach]

^ On the floppy wing collar issue, I think you might be talking about the exception that proves the rule. The detachable collar is recommended because it facilitates the look (and most shirts without them end up looking bad), not because anyone really cares if your collar is detachable. Saying "wear a detachable collar if you want to use a wing collar for black tie" is a good rule of thumb for getting the desired effect (and it does have a nice nod to tradition). Likewise, if one doesn't have the attention to detail to get a wing collar right, a turndown collar is just a better option because it's way more difficult to screw up. I'm not sure there's much disagreement here, just fleshing out some ideas and getting back into writing more about clothing.

 

[Andy57]

On the "floppy wing collar unless it's detachable & super-stiff"

I simply have not found that to be the case with properly lined, reasonably starched attached-collar ***** from Budd.

I won't argue the observation, of course, but I have never seen an example of an attached collar that looked good. Or at least as good as I think it ought to look. I continue suspect that a shirt that is starched enough for the collar to be stiff enough is likely to be too heavily started to wear comfortably. But I could easily be wrong.

The setting also makes a difference . For instance, Andy57 seems to wear black tie admirably often and not just at formal events and in that setting a more 'Edwardian' DJ rig would probably be de trop.

Possibly so. I'll be wearing a dinner jacket tonight, and the venue plus the warm weather means that I'll be going as light as possible. Definitely not Edwardian.

^ On the floppy wing collar issue, I think you might be talking about the exception that proves the rule. The detachable collar is recommended because it facilitates the look (and most shirts without them end up looking bad), not because anyone really cares if your collar is detachable. Saying "wear a detachable collar if you want to use a wing collar for black tie" is a good rule of thumb for getting the desired effect (and it does have a nice nod to tradition). Likewise, if one doesn't have the attention to detail to get a wing collar right, a turndown collar is just a better option because it's way more difficult to screw up. I'm not sure there's much disagreement here, just fleshing out some ideas and getting back into writing more about clothing.

Well stated. I agree.

 

[TyroneTornado]

I'm getting married in November and am using this as the perfect excuse to purchase a tuxedo. I have my eye on several different models and I've done my homework as to what I want. The issue is that I prefer a grosgrain lapel over satin, but all of the rental companies I am working with offer only satin lapel tuxedos. Would it look bad for me (groom) to wear a grosgrain lapel tuxedo and for my groomsmen to wear a satin lapel tuxedo? Or will anyone even notice?

I know not to mix satin and grosgrain on my own personal outfit.

 

[Andy57]

I'm getting married in November and am using this as the perfect excuse to purchase a tuxedo. I have my eye on several different models and I've done my homework as to what I want. The issue is that I prefer a grosgrain lapel over satin, but all of the rental companies I am working with offer only satin lapel tuxedos. Would it look bad for me (groom) to wear a grosgrain lapel tuxedo and for my groomsmen to wear a satin lapel tuxedo? Or will anyone even notice?

I know not to mix satin and grosgrain on my own personal outfit.

My guess is that no one will notice. Even if they do, it is a way for you to stand out from your groomsmen.

 

[sftiger]

My guess is that no one will notice. Even if they do, it is a way for you to stand out from your groomsmen.

No one will notice. It's really, really hard to tell unless you're up close or know exactly what to look for. My groomsmen all just wore the tuxes they already owned (all black but a mix of shawl, peak, and *gasp* notch). I just looked at a photo of the group of us on the wedding day and you can barely tell that the tuxes are much different from each other.

 

[TyroneTornado]

Does anyone have experience with the black grosgrain bow ties from the Tie Bar? I am trying to decide if it makes sense to buy from them for $20 vs somewhere else for $60-100. I know that with regular neck ties, you generally get what you pay for, but I have less knowledge of bow ties.

I think it goes without saying that whatever I buy will be self-tie.

 

[Andy57]

Does anyone have experience with the black grosgrain bow ties from the Tie Bar? I am trying to decide if it makes sense to buy from them for $20 vs somewhere else for $60-100. I know that with regular neck ties, you generally get what you pay for, but I have less knowledge of bow ties.

I think it goes without saying that whatever I buy will be self-tie.

I don't have any experience with the Tie Bar, but, for $20 you don't have all that much to lose if it turns out to be crap. The best grosgrain tie is from Le Noeud Papillon.