The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

[Andy57]

But mainly the pocket square. We had that conversation before. Andy, I’m expecting something naughty from your pocketsquare New Years! Hahhahaha.

Nothing naughty, I'm afraid. The square I wore last night was a Christmas present from my wife, and is an Hermès silk square she got while we were in New York a couple of months ago.

 

[am55]

Nothing naughty, I'm afraid. The square I wore last night was a Christmas present from my wife, and is an Hermès silk square she got while we were in New York a couple of months ago.
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There is something quite... indulgent? decadent? about going to Hermes for a white or ivory silk square.

 

[Andy57]

There is something quite... indulgent? decadent? about going to Hermes for a white or ivory silk square.

Technically, we went to Bergdorf-Goodman, but yes. Decadent? Certainly. Indulgent? What's the point of a Christmas present if not indulgence. Or is it just Hermès? In which case, I better not mention...

 

[am55]

Technically, we went to Bergdorf-Goodman, but yes. Decadent? Certainly. Indulgent? What's the point of a Christmas present if not indulgence. Or is it just Hermès? In which case, I better not mention...

I was approving! And yes, the best presents are those that are just outside the line between quality and indulgence, where you might not have pulled the trigger yourself (although... you might have).

 

[Andy57]

I was approving! And yes, the best presents are those that are just outside the line between quality and indulgence, where you might not have pulled the trigger yourself (although... you might have).

Ah, I apologize. And yes, I might have.

 

[culverwood]

OK I get your point. I just pointed out that TWD said a black wool vest should not be worn in a white tie ensamble. I happen to use my black wool vest a dozen times per year comparing to my white which I use a handfull if even that many. I am also pretty sure that regular white tie wearers in Sweden use their black vest more than their white one. Sorry for going off topic btw.

I can confirm @Zerase post that black vest with white tie rig is also common in Finland.

 

[am55]

Re: Hermes... I spend a lot of time in airports, and am not a fan of most of the duty free section (which is anyway the same limited selection from DFS everywhere, these days). But I always somehow spend a few minutes in the Hermes shop. Yes, it is wildly overpriced, but the same family still owns it, it is still resolutely colourful in a world of grey and grey-navy and grey-black Zegnas and Hugo Bosses, the squares are works of art, Ellena's work as artistic as mainstream perfumery can be allowed to be, and the leatherwork warm and tasteful.

I pray for their continued success in APAC so I can retain my little islands of civilisation in the cattle processing facilities where one is forced to pass to go anywhere interesting. And I still haven't bought anything full price. The prices seem to grow faster than Bitcoin.

 

[Andy57]

Re: Hermes... [...] Yes, it is wildly overpriced, but the same family still owns it, it is still resolutely colourful in a world of grey and grey-navy and grey-black Zegnas and Hugo Bosses, the squares are works of art, Ellena's work as artistic as mainstream perfumery can be allowed to be, and the leatherwork warm and tasteful.

I've always been a fan. I have several pocket squares, acquired over the years. I do like their classic 90cm silk scarves. I'd get one for myself if I could make it work, which I've never been able to. And I've strongly considered buying the hanging kit and just putting one on the wall. As for the price, well, the price is the price. You either pay it or you don't.

 

[XKxRome0ox]

as predicted by another member, i was totally overdressed for san diego
but it was fun to dress up with the wife and go out for the night

the party at the maritime museum was not impressive at all
but it was my first time spending NYE with my wife so it didn't matter

 

[am55]

I've always been a fan. I have several pocket squares, acquired over the years. I do like their classic 90cm silk scarves. I'd get one for myself if I could make it work, which I've never been able to. And I've strongly considered buying the hanging kit and just putting one on the wall. As for the price, well, the price is the price. You either pay it or you don't.

I think there are limits beyond which even a price insensitive customer can say it is a bit high. At SYD I saw some ties for AUD 450, that is admittedly also what Charvet charges, but still, I remember when they were GBP 70. David Hober, Vanda and other world class makers offer theirs for USD 100-200. Camps de Luca's prices are similarly positioned vs the rest of the market.

 

[Andy57]

I think there are limits beyond which even a price insensitive customer can say it is a bit high.

I agree with that. Everyone has their own idea of what qualifies as a high price to pay some something. It's saying that the ties are overpriced (or that anything is, really) is where I disagree. An object cannot be overpriced if someone is willing to pay that price. If you want an Hermès tie, say, then the only place to get one is at Hermès (leaving aside the second hand market) and you pay what Hermès is charging, or you don't. If, on the other hand, you want a very high quality tie then you have lots of options, including Hober, Harry White, and plenty more, at various price points. Arguably, all those makers' ties are better quality than Hermès, but none of them are Hermès. If that matters to you, then you have to pay Hermès prices. And the same concept applies over and over again, in all types of products. It is the free market at work.

 

[Bounder]

Well no, that does not count, it applies only to one particular institution at one particular time, it is not "white tie" as is generally understood by most of the world. The correct terminology would be something like "the waistcoat from the Uppsala University graduation ceremony". A quick search returns Freemasons and other Scandinavian countries as wearers of black vest.

I take your point. But Scandinavia in general and Sweden in particular kind of own white tie at this point. I suspect there are more people wearing white tie in Stockholm in the average week than wear white tie in London in a year. So we may have to make allowances.

 

[ericgereghty]

I think there are limits beyond which even a price insensitive customer can say it is a bit high. At SYD I saw some ties for AUD 450, that is admittedly also what Charvet charges, but still, I remember when they were GBP 70. David Hober, Vanda and other world class makers offer theirs for USD 100-200. Camps de Luca's prices are similarly positioned vs the rest of the market.

In fairness to Hermes, those prices aren't obscenely high compared to other makers. Liverano and TYT (at least via Armoury) are all roughly around that price point. To me, they're outrageously priced, but that's also because I know of makers like Hober/Vanda/etc.

 

[Zerase]

The only shot of me in the tuxedo beside for some bathroom selfies. I promise to take more pics next time I use it i.e. in about a year from now.

 

[am55]

I take your point. But Scandinavia in general and Sweden in particular kind of own white tie at this point. I suspect there are more people wearing white tie in Stockholm in the average week than wear white tie in London in a year. So we may have to make allowances.

I would argue the Swedes are making a mistake if they wear their academic black waistcoat in white tie, even if it is locally allowed.

This is taken from the Black Tie Guide website and shows the Swedish Royal family sporting the white vests:

implying that the correct vest is also white in Scandinavia.