Leather Quality and Properties

[razl]



I digress. 
But just for the record, Viagra is a PDE5 inhibitor. It has an effect on blood flow in the penis but does not do anything to one's sexual drive. 

That might have been the proverbial a chicken-and-egg situation, no? I mean, what else are you going to do when you're 3 hours in and it's not going away.

 

[vmss]

I have a question regarding glazing or glazed calfskin. Does it have a purpose other then giving the leather a shine appearance?any sort of protection compared to non glazed leather?

 

[Shalomp]

Hi all! I am about to purchase some horween leather and have some questions for the experts.

horween waxed flesh is basically chromexcel. I know chromexcel has the horween logos stamped on the flesh side. i am curious if waxed flesh will have the logos stamped on the non-waxed side.

and is horween latigo suitable to be turned into a duffle bag shoulder strap? i read somewhere that they hardly stretch and retain their shape very well, which is why they are popular for horse reins?

thanks in advance for all the help!

 

[DWFII]

It is not truely "waxed" in any sense--the flesh has a "dope" on it--very chemical, like a paint--rather than any sort of wax.

Horween latigo is a veg retan. As such it is less stretchy than a chrome but somewhat more stretchy than a pure veg. In a heavy enough weight (thickness) it would make a suitable strap.

But I trained as a saddlemaker and I am a full time shoe/bootmaker and, IMO, Horween latigo is not really the same thing as the red or yellow latigo that is typically used on saddles or horse reins.

 

[Shalomp]

It is not truely "waxed" in any sense--the flesh has a "dope" on it--very chemical, like a paint--rather than any sort of wax.

Horween latigo is a veg retan. As such it is less stretchy than a chrome but somewhat more stretchy than a pure veg. In a heavy enough weight (thickness) it would make a suitable strap.

But I trained as a saddlemaker and I am a full time shoe/bootmaker and, IMO, Horween latigo is not really the same thing as the red or yellow latigo that is typically used on saddles or horse reins.

thank u sir! so if the wax is like a paint, would u know or have seen the horween logo stamped on the "un-painted" side?

will a 9 to 11 oz latigo work well as a duffle bag shoulder strap?

 

[DWFII]



thank u sir! so if the wax is like a paint, would u know or have seen the horween logo stamped on the "un-painted" side?

will a 9 to 11 oz latigo work well as a duffle bag shoulder strap?

I've used Horween's waxed flesh leather on many occasions (mostly reluctantly because there was no other alternative) but I cannot say I ever noticed the logo--it's not something I would pay attention to, in any case, unless it was going to show on the surface of the shoe/boot. And they wouldn't have imprinted it on the fleshside. And I suspect that any imprint on the somewhat oily grain suirface would be fugitive.

As for the latigo dufflebag strap...it depends on how much you're going to carry in the dufflebag. 11-12 ounce should be fine but be sure to cut (or have it cut) parallel to and right next to the backbone. And not from the shoulder area. That will reduce stretch

 

[NHorween]



It is not truely "waxed" in any sense--the flesh has a "dope" on it--very chemical, like a paint--rather than any sort of wax.

Horween latigo is a veg retan. As such it is less stretchy than a chrome but somewhat more stretchy than a pure veg. In a heavy enough weight (thickness) it would make a suitable strap.

But I trained as a saddlemaker and I am a full time shoe/bootmaker and, IMO, Horween latigo is not really the same thing as the red or yellow latigo that is typically used on saddles or horse reins.

Waxed Flesh Chromexcel does have some wax in the finish, among other components that lay the nap of the flesh flat. The effect is more of a result of our ability to smooth plate (like a big iron) the leather with heat and pressure to seal everything up. It's a traditional blend of differnent finishes and dyes and not overly "chemical" in nature, but that's just my opinion.

DW is right in that you want to cut parallel to the backbone and in the bend area to reduce stretch. Stretch is usually a function of the density of the retan and the method of drying employed.

We put the measuring stamp on the grain side of any leather that is designed to be used flesh out, unless otherwise requested by the customer. It is also possible to not stamp at all and include a report of footages instead.

 

[DWFII]



Waxed Flesh Chromexcel does have some wax in the finish, among other components that lay the nap of the flesh flat. The effect is more of a result of our ability to smooth plate (like a big iron) the leather with heat and pressure to seal everything up. It's a traditional blend of differnent finishes and dyes and not overly "chemical" in nature, but that's just my opinion.

I'm sure you know better than I what goes into your production. But my opinion...right or wrong...comes from an experience I had some years ago with this very product:

When I was first making full wellingtons (two piece boots)--which need to be boned and the pipes vigourously chased--I damaged the "waxed" surface of the flesh of some fronts I was blocking. I noted at the time that the "wax" appeared to be peeling--like a latex paint.

I called Horween, explained the problem and asked if there was a remedy. I was generously sent a small bottle of a black liquid and was told that this was simply the same product that the flesh was waxed with at the plant.

On opening the bottle, however, I was nearly overcome by the fumes...which smelled, for all the world...like the "dope" that is used to use to tighten the tissue paper skin on balsa wood model airplanes.

That said, it did repair the damage and looked more or less the same as the surrounding areas.

And in subsequent pairs I learned to block the fronts grainside out first so as to protect the fleshside.

And then I started getting real waxed calf from Dennis Kellet.

 

[NHorween]



I'm sure you know better than I what goes into your production. But my opinion...right or wrong...comes from an experience I had some years ago with this very product

You have the benefit of having actually worked with our stuff and others, I will defer to your experience.

Do you have a piece of this waxed calf you're referencing? Can be very small, and I will return it. I'd like to have a try at matching it.

 

[DWFII]



You have the benefit of having actually worked with our stuff and others, I will defer to your experience.

Do you have a piece of this waxed calf you're referencing? Can be very small, and I will return it. I'd like to have a try at matching it.

Jeeze...I have a lot of scraps around but I'd be surprised if I had any of the Horween still around.

On the other hand I probably do have some Kellet or even some stuff that is, by now as old as I am (70). If that's what you're referring to, I could snip off a piece of that and would gladly send it to you. I also have (or can gain access to) a recipe that is historically correct. My recipe came from the Head Shoemaker and Head of the Shoemaking Faculty at Colonial Williamsburg. Waxed calf is all they use at CW (they can't even use plastic lasts or hinged lasts), and it was from my friend there that I got access to Kellet.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Now that we have nick here I can inquire, how would Essex make up as shoes? From what I understand it is calf with the same tanning process as shell, correct? Sounds like it would be awesome.

 

[whipstitch]

And then I started getting real waxed calf from Dennis Kellet.

How did you make your waxed calf, DFW? I burnish my flesh sides with some paraffin, but that's entirely to fight crocking on the insides of my wallets. I'd like one day to try and make a waxed flesh side that would be suitable as an outside of a wallet. Any tips appreciated. I also appreciate the wealth of information you've already shared.
-Joe

edit: I'm slow sorry. I now see your post above re. the recipe. Would you mind sharing with me?

 

[NHorween]



On the other hand I probably do have some Kellet

The Kellet is what I was referencing, if you're willing to loan me a little bit.

Now that we have nick here I can inquire, how would Essex make up as shoes? From what I understand it is calf with the same tanning process as shell, correct? Sounds like it would be awesome.

It makes up very well - if you want to contact me through our website I can give you some examples. The tanning process is different than that of Shell, but it utilizes the same bark retannage and is a full veg.

 

[DWFII]



How did you make your waxed calf, DFW? I burnish my flesh sides with some paraffin, but that's entirely to fight crocking on the insides of my wallets. I'd like one day to try and make a waxed flesh side that would be suitable as an outside of a wallet. Any tips appreciated. I also appreciate the wealth of information you've already shared.
-Joe

edit: I'm slow sorry. I now see your post above re. the recipe. Would you mind sharing with me?

I've detailed the process in other threads but I can give you a reprise of how it was done--which is substantially similar to the way I did it.

First, a really exceptional grade of veg tanned calf must be chosen. It must be a youngish animal with a superfine nap on the fleshside. East India kips were preferred during the heyday of this process.

It was then "stuffed" with a warm mix of cod oil, and lanolin and maybe a small amount of beeswax and/or rosin.)Recipes differ and I can't remember exactly what mine says--I'd have to dig for it.). Often this was done fireside with a kettle of the "stuffing" at hand.

When the leather was "full" it was set aside to "cure" in a warm place--like the attic--for up to a year or more. By that time, the cod oil would have "gelled" such that very little oilyness would be evident and the leather would smell rich and earth-y...not like cod at all.

The flesh side of the leather was then scrubbed with a mix of lye soap and lamp black. This "broke" any remaining oils in or on the nap and coloured the flesh a deep black. The colour was near-as-nevermind permanent. The grainside would remain a lovely tan.

The boots or shoes were then made--lasted and treed. While still treed and on the last, a wet mix of wheat flour...or some other type of "sizing" (I used old-fashioned wallpaper paste)...was applied to the flesh and burnished with a "long stick" or bone until dry. This had to be done in relatively small swaths so that the leather wouldn't dry out before it could burnish up. When done, the nap would have been laid down almost to the point that it no longer existed as a nap and the burnishing would have created a near-patent shine on the boots.

Of course, as has been discussed before, the burnishing would have had to have been renewed...by your valet or one of the footmen...after each wear.

On the other hand, a wallet would almost be in continuous burnishment (except the creases) although an occasional renewal of the sizing might have to be done.

 

[DWFII]



The Kellet is what I was referencing, if you're willing to loan me a little bit.
It makes up very well - if you want to contact me through our website I can give you some examples. The tanning process is different than that of Shell, but it utilizes the same bark retannage and is a full veg.

Nick,

I'll see what I can dig up.