deconstructed fashion plate

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by sfnapolifan

another way of asking my question (if anyone is interested in answering): 1. do any relatively mainstream rtw shoe manufacturers (e.g., alden) execute goodyear welted shoes without the controversial gemming? 2. if the answer to 1) is no, am i better off only buying blake-constructed shoes (strictly from the perspective of quality)? tx.
I apologize for not addressing this sooner. Assuming you want the best quality in RTW that you can get here's my thoughts (from the perspective of a shoemaker.) Goodyear welted shoes can be machine welted to a machine cut holdfast as an alternative to gemming. But I would have to agree that it is not much of an improvement...some, perhaps...but more importantly not to be found much anymore. I know of no one who offers hand welted construction in RTW. So...let's be clear...You don't want blake construction, you want blake/rapid. There is a difference and it is very significant. I would say that no other production method comes anywhere close to approximating the integrity, stability, and durability of hand welted work. It's not the same but it is surprisingly good, in my estimation. And you want to be sure you get a leather insole...not just a leather sock-liner over a foam rubber insole. Look for those things. Ask for them. Demand them. You won't be sorry. I hope that helps...

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by DWFII

I apologize for not addressing this sooner.

Assuming you want the best quality in RTW that you can get here's my thoughts (from the perspective of a shoemaker.)

Goodyear welted shoes can be machine welted to a machine cut holdfast as an alternative to gemming. But I would have to agree that it is not much of an improvement...some, perhaps...but more importantly not to be found much anymore.

I know of no one who offers hand welted construction in RTW.

So...let's be clear...You don't want blake construction, you want blake/rapid. There is a difference and it is very significant. I would say that no other production method comes anywhere close to approximating the integrity, stability, and durability of hand welted work. It's not the same but it is surprisingly good, in my estimation.

And you want to be sure you get a leather insole...not just a leather sock-liner over a foam rubber insole.

Look for those things. Ask for them. Demand them. You won't be sorry.

I hope that helps...

this is helpful, thank you. it sounds as though you may be saying that alden or other rtw producers might be doing a machine welt without gemming, but that it will entail many of the shortcomings of gemming regardless.

is there truly no rtw producer that makes a hand-welted shoe? much of the commentary on vass, for instance, touts them as completely hand-made. is this just so much marketing hype?

i am not asking you to respond to this (i don't presume that you have comprehensive knowledge of the idiosyncracies of manufacture of every rtw shoe brand, and i wouldn't want to put you in the position of disparaging another maker), but anyone who has knowledge of vass or other premier rtw manufacturers... do any of them welt shoes by hand?

 

[sfnapolifan]

also, do you have an opinion on norwegian?

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by sfnapolifan

is there truly no rtw producer that makes a hand-welted shoe? much of the commentary on vass, for instance, touts them as completely hand-made. is this just so much marketing hype?
I have Vass' book. The photos are clearly of hand-welted work. That said, I don't know for certain whether they do hand-welted across the board or not. But I would like to believe....if nothing else it would renew my faith. I am not certain I know what you mean by "Norwegian." If it is what I think it is, it involves most of the same steps as hand-welted. And all of work.

 

[voxsartoria]

FAIK, the following RTW are all hand lasted and hand welted, with the exception that Saint Crispin's uses a little machine to last the toes (which is similar to the way EG and Lobb last their shoes even if they are Goodyear machine welted):

Cleverley semi-bespoke
C&J/Gomez MTO
Scafora MTO
Stefano Bemer MTO
Vass
Saint Crispin's

Additions and corrections welcome.


- B

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

AFAIK, the following RTW are all hand lasted and hand welted, with the exception that Saint Crispin's uses a little machine to last the toes (which is similar to the way EG and Lobb last their shoes even if they are Goodyear machine welted): Cleverley semi-bespoke C&J/Gomez RTW Scafora RTW Stefano Bemer RTW Vass Saint Crispin's Additions and corrections welcome. - B
Thank you for that post. Puts things in perspective, doesn't it? Think of it! Quality commensurate with price. What a novel idea!!

 

[RJman]

There is no C&J/Gomez RTW. Gomez offers a MTO option from 1300 or 1400 euros which has nothing to do the RTW sold at C&J.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by RJman

There is no C&J/Gomez RTW. Gomez offers a MTO option from 1300 or 1400 euros which has nothing to do the RTW sold at C&J.

Good clarification...corrected.

- B

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by DWFII

I am not certain I know what you mean by "Norwegian." If it is what I think it is, it involves most of the same steps as hand-welted. And all of work.

To be honest, I'm not sure either... I'm new to getting my wardrobe in shape and even newer to thinking about better shoes. My first purchases in this vein were a couple of pairs of Aldens (which I guess are of inferior machine-welted construction) and a pair of Gravati's (which are probably Blake Rapid, or potentially Blake--I'm going to try to figure this out).

Wish I had read this before purchasing the Aldens... I'm generally pleased with them, but one of the selling points seems to be the GY welt and its attendant longevity, which now appears to be rather less of a selling point.

 

[emptym]

I think the balmoral boots made by Carmina for the LL were hand welted.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by sfnapolifan

Wish I had read this before purchasing the Aldens... I'm generally pleased with them, but one of the selling points seems to be the GY welt and its attendant longevity, which now appears to be rather less of a selling point.
I am am old man...well not that old...but may I give you a piece of advice? It's free...? Don't regret the Aldens, just learn. Learn to appreciate good, better and best. That's all. Not everyone can afford better much less best but everyone can learn. I hope that didn't come off too pretentious, it was meant sincerely.

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by DWFII

I am am old man...well not that old...but may I give you a piece of advice? It's free...?

Don't regret the Aldens, just learn. Learn to appreciate good, better and best. That's all. Not everyone can afford better much less best but everyone can learn.

I hope that didn't come off too pretentious, it was meant sincerely.

don't get me wrong... my cigar shell chukkas aren't going to end up on the b&s. in the grand scheme of things, not an expensive mistake, and probably not much of a mistake period.

still, this is the first delineation i've seen here on the forum of a significant functional difference between gy welt and hand welt, as well as the first substantive argument i've seen for the functional superiority of blake rapid to gy welt. so, if i knew then what i know now... i'd probably have gone to a little bit of extra trouble (and living in san francisco, it does appear to involve some trouble) to hunt down a pair of riders instead. and that's probably what i'll do for my next pair of shells. the wheels are also beginning to turn on how to track down some vass.

so, thank you for the info.

 

[laphroaig]

Originally Posted by Orgetorix

But on the other hand, both of these issues are things that seem like they ought to have been brought up before either of you started posting. There are other tailors who post here and at AAAC, yet I don't remember them ever warning against the use of steam so stridently. Likewise, there's at least one other cobbler and many other very knowledgeable shoe folks who post here, and I've never heard any of them decry gemmed construction as stridently as you do. I just don't know what--or whom--to believe: the expert opinion of one or the less-expert-but-knowledgeable silence of a lot more people?
This has been mentioned here a few times. Perhaps never mentioned directly but the link to the excellent AAAC article explaining good year welt shoe construction has been mentioned plenty of times, and that explains insole attachment using gemming quite clearly. http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/T...nstruction.htm

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by laphroaig

This has been mentioned here a few times. Perhaps never mentioned directly but the link to the excellent AAAC article explaining good year welt shoe construction has been mentioned plenty of times, and that explains insole attachment using gemming quite clearly. http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/T...nstruction.htm

in typical fashion, i saw this before, but i only looked at the pictures. there's nothing in the diagram that denotes how the welt is attached to the insole (probably because there are three ways of doing it). now that i've read it, it's clear that the article states that gemming is as secure as a machine-cut rib. however, from the information in this thread, it seems as though neither is all that secure.

i suppose if i had to choose between one of the two less secure methods, gemming would be the way to go. it would seem as though once the machine-cut rib breaks down or wears out, the wearer would be SOL. whereas gemming can be replaced. however, from the info here, it seems as though gemming can break down surprisingly quickly and that without access to the last, the fit of the shoe can be compromised by a local repair person who may have to replace the gemming in the course of replacing the outer sole.

so, for my aldens, the solution would appear to be to ask my repair person to look out for broken gemming when doing a resole, and if the gemming is broken down, have the shoes reconditioned by alden so as not to compromise fit due to inaccurate replacement of the gemming.

so, i appreciate your point that this information had been made available in the past. however, i think the implications of the information hadn't been fully realized or widely disseminated. i've never seen anyone argue that blake/rapid was functionally superior to the most common method of gy welt.

 

[laphroaig]

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