deconstructed fashion plate

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by laphroaig

The way I've been reading this thread was that gemming was the most inferior form of inner sole attachment, even more so than in cemented soles. I'm not sure if DWFII was also implying that it was also the most inferior form of shoe construction as a whole.
One of the most crucial points I've made...and one that has been missed...is that despite the perhaps testimonials to the GY welt, it's prelude to further degradation of the shoe in a way that few other techniques are. Forgive me for repeating myself but...

Originally Posted by DW

Now, it bears repeating...in almost all instances, the gemming is held in place solely by cement. And that is its first weak spot. The cement will fail, probably even before the shoe is in need of a resole. When the cement fails the gemming slips and the shoe will walk out of shape. And anyone attempting to resole without the original last, faces the nearly impossible task of trying to re-position the gemming. Moreover, canvas is far more fragile than leather. If cotton canvas is used, it is subject to bacterial action--rot, in other words. Stitches pull through, the welt itself comes loose, and moisture and dirt enter the shoe. Gemming also frees the manufacturer to select thinner and cheaper grades of leather for the insole...or eschew leather altogether and use fiberboard insoles. Nothing visible, nothing immediately apparent will alert the customer to this further debasement of sound shoe technologies. Many manufacturers put a Poron or other cushion insole on top of the fiberboard insole and tout the whole as a "comfort" insole.
That point was underscored by a video that was posted in this thread:

a) Leather insoles are not black. b) Gemming doesn't hold the welt stitches very well...the strain imposed by the welt will open up the fabric around the stitches...making it almost mandatory that the shoes be recrafted and the gemming, as well as the welt, replaced. So your shoes must necessarily go back to the manufacturer if they are to retain any integrity. Shoe repair shops cannot handle this job very well. They don't have access to the materials or the machines.​

Personally I think cement sole construction is far worse than GY construction but as I previously implied, at least we all know what we are getting when we buy cement construction. It's not masquerading as something else.

 

[sully]

What is the point of hand welting a factory made shoe? Bespoke makers do it because they have to as each job is an individual project, but in a factory where standard sizes and designs are being made all the time what is the point. It will put a big labour cost on to the product for little advantage as I see it.The mix of hand work and machine work may be difficult in a factory as one advantage machines do have is consistency which may not be the case with hand work.

I think there are many fine makes of RTW shoes available which could suit many peoples price bracket and if fit is not an issue very high quaility bespoke (and not all bespoke is that good )
really is a huge expense.
Sully

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by sully

What is the point of hand welting a factory made shoe? Bespoke makers do it because they have to as each job is an individual project, but in a factory where standard sizes and designs are being made all the time what is the point. It will put a big labour cost on to the product for little advantage as I see it.The mix of hand work and machine work may be difficult in a factory as one advantage machines do have is consistency which may not be the case with hand work. I think there are many fine makes of RTW shoes available which could suit many peoples price bracket and if fit is not an issue very high quaility bespoke (and not all bespoke is that good ) really is a huge expense. Sully
All things being equal, hand-welting simply makes a superior shoe. And yes, not all bespoke is top shelf. But most in most cases you're getting what you pay for...or should be if you are paying attention and haven't been gulled by advertising hype. At the same time...this is a corollary to my initial remarks...not all RTW is even adequate, or better...worth what is being charged for it. Which is better in your estimation...to pay an outrageously overpriced $6k for a solid, stable, bespoke shoe or an equally (relatively) overpriced RTW that originates in an environment of expediency and insouciance and incorporates materials and techniques that are nearly the definition of built-in obsolescence? The real question is why would a company throw out centuries of evolution, workers with decades of unique skills and essentially disavow legitimately heralded standards of quality?

 

[sully]

Originally Posted by DWFII

All things being equal, hand-welting simply makes a superior shoe.

And yes, not all bespoke is top shelf. But most in most cases you're getting what you pay for...or should be if you are paying attention and haven't been gulled by advertising hype. At the same time...this is a corollary to my initial remarks...not all RTW is even adequate, or better...worth what is being charged for it.

Which is better in your estimation...to pay an outrageously overpriced $6k for a solid, stable, bespoke shoe or an equally (relatively) overpriced RTW that originates in an environment of expediency and insouciance and incorporates materials and techniques that are nearly the definition of built-in obsolescence?

The real question is why would a company throw out centuries of evolution, workers with decades of unique skills and essentially disavow legitimately heralded standards of quality?

Of course not all RTW is of good quality but this applies to many products and always has.
Was all footwear of high quality material and build in the days before machinery, I dont think so
There would have been all levels of work to cater for rich , poor or working man.

While the romantic ideal of unique skills and heralded standards of quality is very noble
I suspect the reality for the few high quality factories left is survival.They are all just small factories
and to survive they must cost their product to pay the bills ,to accuse them of insouciance and not caring about their product is not fair. Some of the leather used by EG and JL RTW looks better quality than some bespoke I have seen, and although some of the manufacturing methods do not meet your exacting standards they are hardly made with obsolescence in mind. Running a factory is a whole different world than a one man band crafting his product alone,and they serve different markets. Why would hand welting fit in with the costing of a factory product, its a gimmick to make a factory shoe appear what it is not.Have a good look at an EG shoe and you will see a beautiful product made with care and will not fall apart as soon as it is worn .

Sully.

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by sully

Of course not all RTW is of good quality but this applies to many products and always has.
Was all footwear of high quality material and build in the days before machinery, I dont think so
There would have been all levels of work to cater for rich , poor or working man.

While the romantic ideal of unique skills and heralded standards of quality is very noble
I suspect the reality for the few high quality factories left is survival.They are all just small factories
and to survive they must cost their product to pay the bills ,to accuse them of insouciance and not caring about their product is not fair. Some of the leather used by EG and JL RTW looks better quality than some bespoke I have seen, and although some of the manufacturing methods do not meet your exacting standards they are hardly made with obsolescence in mind. Running a factory is a whole different world than a one man band crafting his product alone,and they serve different markets. Why would hand welting fit in with the costing of a factory product, its a gimmick to make a factory shoe appear what it is not.Have a good look at an EG shoe and you will see a beautiful product made with care and will not fall apart as soon as it is worn .

Sully.

i don't think the argument is that edward green makes bad shoes, or that the shoes aren't pretty. i took a decent amount of time to read this thread and comment because i think the information here is quite important yet not at all widely understood. some of these very high end manufacturers (along with more mainstream ones) are utilizing gemming because hand welting is too expensive, too difficult, whatever. gemming is probably better than a machine-cut rib because the shoes can still be recrafted if the welt attachment fails. however, i think most of us (myself included) hadn't heretofore wondered enough about what is involved in a gy welt. if glue and linen are the key structural components maintaining the integrity of the attachment of the welt to the insole, that's a disappointment for me, whether the shoes in question are alden, lobb paris, edward green, you name it.

this doesn't mean that the shoes will fall apart the first time they are worn. but i think it does mean that the gemming may have to be replaced sooner than we all would like, potentially at the first outsole replacement. if we entrust that job to a local repair person (who is otherwise competent but doesn't have access to the last), we're asking for trouble. factory reconditioning appears to be the only option once the gemming has broken down, separated from the insole, etc.

does this make eg or lobb paris bad shoes? i can't say. but, i find it disappointing and i won't be buying any (not that they'll miss me) and will give vass or koronya my business instead in the same price range or below.

 

[sully]

i don't think the argument is that edward green makes bad shoes, or that the shoes aren't pretty. i took a decent amount of time to read this thread and comment because i think the information here is quite important yet not at all widely understood. some of these very high end manufacturers (along with more mainstream ones) are utilizing gemming because hand welting is too expensive, too difficult, whatever. gemming is probably better than a machine-cut rib because the shoes can still be recrafted if the welt attachment fails. however, i think most of us (myself included) hadn't heretofore wondered enough about what is involved in a gy welt. if glue and linen are the key structural components maintaining the integrity of the attachment of the welt to the insole, that's a disappointment for me, whether the shoes in question are alden, lobb paris, edward green, you name it.

this doesn't mean that the shoes will fall apart the first time they are worn. but i think it does mean that the gemming may have to be replaced sooner than we all would like, potentially at the first outsole replacement. if we entrust that job to a local repair person (who is otherwise competent but doesn't have access to the last), we're asking for trouble. factory reconditioning appears to be the only option once the gemming has broken down, separated from the insole, etc.

To be honest most repairers would struggle with a rewelting job, be it a full leather insole or a gemmed one, its a specialist job. Where is the evidence that the glue and gemming will fail so soon. I just dont believe that it is such a poor way to produce a shoe ,how often are these high end RTW shoes failing, is there a major problem with poor longevity.There are enough owners of EG, JL G&G to comment on this so it will be interesting to see the experience of owners.

 

[sfnapolifan]

my contention is not that rewelting isn't a specialist job. the op states, however, that gemming can/will fail as early as the first needed outsole replacement. the implication being that the local repair shop will then glue it back, without necessarily knowing where it was supposed to be in the first place. so, resoled shoes come back fitting incorrectly or at least differently from how they did prior to the resole. the further implication is that this would not be an issue with hand-channeled shoes. (why they should need to be hand-channeled would seem to be less of an issue of engineering possibility than economic reality. apple can carve a laptop case out of a solid block of aluminum without direct human intervention--if enough consumers cared, i'm sure someone would figure out a way to make this doable on a machine.)

the op says that gemming breaks down all the time. i would also like to see some other opinions offered on this point - how often and with how much wear will gemming fail in some way?

 

[sully]

Originally Posted by sfnapolifan

my contention is not that rewelting isn't a specialist job. the op states, however, that gemming can/will fail as early as the first needed outsole replacement. the implication being that the local repair shop will then glue it back, without necessarily knowing where it was supposed to be in the first place. so, resoled shoes come back fitting incorrectly or at least differently from how they did prior to the resole. the further implication is that this would not be an issue with hand-channeled shoes. (why they should need to be hand-channeled would seem to be less of an issue of engineering possibility than economic reality. apple can carve a laptop case out of a solid block of aluminum without direct human intervention--if enough consumers cared, i'm sure someone would figure out a way to make this doable on a machine.)

the op says that gemming breaks down all the time. i would also like to see some other opinions offered on this point - how often and with how much wear will gemming fail in some way?

The op has told us that this gemming is a weak point from his experience years ago in the repair trade, a valid opinion of course but this does not prove the case . Are EG and others having to correct this fault on a lot of their shoes.Does the op have any idea if these factories are getting a high amount of returns due to this choice of manufacture,I would be interested to know and if it is a real problem then all this discussion is valid.

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by sully

The op has told us that this gemming is a weak point from his experience years ago in the repair trade, a valid opinion of course but this does not prove the case . Are EG and others having to correct this fault on a lot of their shoes.Does the op have any idea if these factories are getting a high amount of returns due to this choice of manufacture,I would be interested to know and if it is a real problem then all this discussion is valid.

+1. would love to see other perspectives from those who have direct repair/resole experience with eg, lobb paris, et al. if a consumer perspective, would love to hear from the relative small timer who is wearing these shoes with enough frequency to put the construction to the test.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by sfnapolifan

i don't think the argument is that edward green makes bad shoes, or that the shoes aren't pretty. i took a decent amount of time to read this thread and comment because i think the information here is quite important yet not at all widely understood. .
+100 You did take the time to read this!! From the heart...thank you for the courtesy.

 

[Orgetorix]

Originally Posted by laphroaig

This has been mentioned here a few times. Perhaps never mentioned directly but the link to the excellent AAAC article explaining good year welt shoe construction has been mentioned plenty of times, and that explains insole attachment using gemming quite clearly. http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/T...nstruction.htm

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying the technique hadn't been discussed before, but that it hadn't been raise as a problem in the way that DW has characterized it.

Originally Posted by sully

The op has told us that this gemming is a weak point from his experience years ago in the repair trade, a valid opinion of course but this does not prove the case . Are EG and others having to correct this fault on a lot of their shoes.Does the op have any idea if these factories are getting a high amount of returns due to this choice of manufacture,I would be interested to know and if it is a real problem then all this discussion is valid.

In the equivalent thread going on over at AAAC, Nick V (proprietor of B. Nelson Shoe Repair) has weighed and disagreed with DW pretty significantly.

 

[janne melkersson]

Originally Posted by sully

The op has told us that this gemming is a weak point from his experience years ago in the repair trade, a valid opinion of course but this does not prove the case . Are EG and others having to correct this fault on a lot of their shoes.Does the op have any idea if these factories are getting a high amount of returns due to this choice of manufacture,I would be interested to know and if it is a real problem then all this discussion is valid.
Yes, this might be a real problem for welted footwear you can find at Walmart but not at the top end factories we are talking about here. A couple of years ago I sold a inseaming machine (the machine who sew the welt through the upper leather and the canvas rib) to a repair shop in Stockholm who had a contract with Church about repairing their Swedish shoes. I didn't here anything about catastrophic problems caused by the canvas but of course before they sewed a new welt on they had to re-cement the canvas occasionally. I don't think a method is that bad if it is possible to sew a new welt on an old shoe which has been used so much a new bottom is needed!

 

[bengal-stripe]

Originally Posted by janne melkersson

Yes, this might be a real problem for welted footwear you can find at Walmart but not at the top end factories we are talking about here.

Thanks, Janne!

 

[sfnapolifan]

Originally Posted by Orgetorix

In the equivalent thread going on over at AAAC, Nick V (proprietor of B. Nelson Shoe Repair) has weighed and disagreed with DW pretty significantly.

I went over to akac, and even figured out how to use their forum search.

after reading what nick had to say, it didn't seem to me that he even took issue with questions surrounding the soundness of gemming as a method of gy welt manufacture. he basically just said that the premier manufacturers used top-notch materials and had in many cases stepped in to create in-house what had previously been produced by their supply chain after members of their supply chain went belly-up.

however, no one seemed to address the matter of soundness of this controversial method of construction. yes, maybe they're performing this method of welt attachment using top rung materials, including top rung glue. still, it's the fact that glue is such an important part of this welt attachment that i find so troubling.

sure, some of these manufacturers may have the best finishing, materials, etc., but if basic matters of construction are found lacking, i find that surprising. i found nothing at akac to make me think otherwise, and in fact i saw other users bringing up the matter of resoled shoes not fitting properly.

so, while still a bit skeptical, i'm closer to convinced now than before my visit to akac.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by janne melkersson

Yes, this might be a real problem for welted footwear you can find at Walmart but not at the top end factories we are talking about here.
Janne, Thanks for your thoughts...Maybe I can tap into your experience. Why? How does the gemming done on low price shoes differ from what is done of high priced shoes? How does the ribbing differ? How does the cement differ? How do the name brands achieve supposedly increased stability and reliability when the technique and presumably the materials are the same? Forgive me if I seem a little uneasy with this image but it sounds almost as if it is the magic of the name alone that makes the product better. And perhaps that's all it takes... it may be that name is what really you're paying for--as I suggested right from the beginning, after all.