Cashmere Sweater Hierarchy

[Sartorium]

I'm assuming @dieworkwear remembers, but I think a year or two ago one of Cucinelli's head designers branched out on his own and now I can't dig it up or find the company.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm assuming @dieworkwear remembers, but I think a year or two ago one of Cucinelli's head designers branched out on his own and now I can't dig it up or find the company.

Don't know who that is.

 

[diokanye]

I'm assuming @dieworkwear remembers, but I think a year or two ago one of Cucinelli's head designers branched out on his own and now I can't dig it up or find the company.

Are you referring to Eleventy?

 

[Sartorium]

Are you referring to Eleventy?

I don't think that was it, but I suspect you would know this landscape better than me

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Are you referring to Eleventy?

It would make sense given the similar aesthetic.

 

[Shetterd]

Does anyone know who makes for the "Glen Oak" label? I have only seen it on ebay where it is sold by sellers who appear to sell old William Lockie, Johnstons, etc stock, but I cannot find much else about them. Thanks!

 

[Joytropics]

We have quite high manufacturing costs because of alot of factors outside of just quality/materials. For one, the employees are paid on average 20% higher than similar companies. Secondly we produce almost all of our garments in house in Umbria, which is expensive because of the lack of supply chain here (small factory in the middle of farmland) as well as the fact that we don't outsource anything.

Most our high price is related to the way Brunello wants to operate the company, with respect for his workers as well as nature, which is an expensive way to do business.

This is awesome. So many companies falsely claim to be “sustainable” and “ethical” but this is clearly the real deal.

Of course, there are always trade-offs, and in this case it’s the nosebleed prices.

I only have a few Cucinelli things, but I’m proud to own them.

 

[dieworkwear]

This is awesome. So many companies falsely claim to be “sustainable” and “ethical” but this is clearly the real deal.

Of course, there are always trade-offs, and in this case it’s the nosebleed prices.

I only have a few Cucinelli things, but I’m proud to own them.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand @Charles Knight's calculation. I'm curious to know more, if he cares to explain.

According to him, Cucinelli marks up 3x from manufacturing. But they run distributor accounts and wholesale.

As I understand it, if a company runs wholesale, the usual mark up structure is as follows:

From manufacturing to wholesale: typically a 2x mark up. So if it costs $100 to manufacturing something, they will sell it to a store for $200.

From wholesale to retail: typically 2x or 2.5x for normal goods. So if a store buys something for $200, they will retail it for $400 or $500. However, for luxury goods such as Cucinelli, the mark up is usually 3x or 3.7x. So if they purchase an item for $200, they will sell it for $600 or $740. That means that the effective mark up -- from manufacturing to retail -- is somewhere around 6x to 7.4x for luxury brands.

If Cucinelli only marks up 3x from manufacturing, that means they have a lower mark up than even your normal wholesale brand. A normal wholesale brand will manufacture something for $100 and then retail it for $400 or $500. But Cucinelli, a luxury brand, is somehow retailing it for $300?

My guess is that it's true that Cucinelli marks up 3x. But this is from wholesale cost, not manufacturing cost. This wallet costs $545 at Mr. Porter. If Cuccinelli marked up 3x from manufacturing, it costs $181 to make. But standard mark up in retail is 2.5x (and that's what Mr. Porter likely runs on). So for Mr. Porter to even put this on their site, they would need a wholesale cost of $220 or lower. That gives Cucinelli a profit margin of $39? That doesn't seem right.

As for the comparison to Savile Row (Cucinelli keeps everything in-house and pays workers handsomely), Savile Row tailoring houses also keep everything in-house and wages in Britain are higher than wages in Italy. So if it costs $2,000 to manufacture a fully handmade suit, how can it cost more to manufacture a machine-made suit? I've heard from factory people that it can take anywhere from 90 minutes to 6 hours to make a machine-made suit. A fully handmade suit supposedly takes somewhere around 40 hours. Wouldn't the lower wages in Italy, as well as the reduced time, result in a much lower manufacturing cost? Both examples keep manufacturing processes domestic.

Anyway, I'm curious to know more, if Charles cares to elaborate.

 

[Joytropics]

I’m curious about the specifics too.

But @Charles Knight made it clear that Cucinelli craftspeople are paid much more than the industry standard.

And I bet he‘d also make the point that actually sewing a garment is just one part of a process that involves multiple skilled artisans - the people sourcing the textiles, the patter-maker, the design etc.

I think about what it takes to hire and organize a skilled, specialized team in my field, and Cucinelli prices make perfect sense from that perspective.

Of course, I believe white-collar work should be on the same footing as skilled trades, which seems to be a minority view on Styleforum...

 

[dieworkwear]

I’m curious about the specifics too.

But @Charles Knight made it clear that Cucinelli craftspeople are paid much more than the industry standard.

And I bet he‘d also make the point that actually sewing a garment is just one part of a process that involves multiple skilled artisans - the people sourcing the textiles, the patter-maker, the design etc.

I think about what it takes to hire and organize a skilled, specialized team in my field, and Cucinelli prices make perfect sense from that perspective.

Of course, I believe white-collar work should be on the same footing as skilled trades, which seems to be a minority view on Styleforum...

They may be paid more than the industry standard, but how can they suit end up costing more than a bespoke Savile Row suit, given all the inputs?

1. British wages are higher than Italian wages

2. A bespoke suit takes about 40 hours to make (supposedly). A factory-made suit takes somewhere around 90 minutes to 6 hours to make.

3. Brands buy fabric by the bulk (in huge, huge quantities). Tailors buy cloth by the cut length (unless they happen to have stock, but it's still always small).

4. There are still cutters in bespoke, just as there are patternmakers in ready to wear. I don't know the wages for machine operators versus tailors, but machine operators are less skilled. Here's a machine operator padding a lapel




Here is a tailor

 

[Joytropics]

Whatever the standard wages are for certain jobs or countries has no bearing on Cucinelli, which is obviously an edge case. They may very well pay the highest wages in garment manufacturing period - who else would it be? Loro Piana? Hermes?

The average American family makes like $40k a year. That doesn't tell you anything about what a Goldman Sachs partner makes.

 

[dieworkwear]

Whatever the standard wages are for certain jobs or countries has no bearing on Cucinelli, which is obviously an edge case. They may very well pay the highest wages in garment manufacturing period - who else would it be? Loro Piana? Hermes?

The average American family makes like $40k a year. That doesn't tell you anything about what a Goldman Sachs partner makes.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Anyway, my guess is that Charles may have forgotten about wholesale mark ups, and that 3x mark up is from wholesale price to retail price, not manufacturing to retail.

 

[TokenMao]

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Anyway, my guess is that Charles may have forgotten about wholesale mark ups, and that 3x mark up is from wholesale price to retail price, not manufacturing to retail.

The specific point he's making is that British wages being on average higher than Italian wages =/= Saville Row wages being higher than BC wages. More broadly it's that applying a "standard" cost structure for BC is likely doesn't mean much given how different they are from standard companies.

 

[Joytropics]

@TokenMao - exactly.

But here’s the main thing:

I think Charles was making a broader point, justifying the prices of Cucinelli by explaining how much they spend on their people and products, especially in comparison to other luxury brands.

How exactly that breaks down on the balance sheet isn’t as important.

Every article I’ve read about Cucinelli mentions the locally-sourced materials and personnel, and how unique the facilities are in Solomeo are.

I think that’s a remarkable story. And it also highlights how expensive true sustainability and ethical manufacturing is.

 

[dieworkwear]

The specific point he's making is that British wages being on average higher than Italian wages =/= Saville Row wages being higher than BC wages. More broadly it's that applying a "standard" cost structure for BC is likely doesn't mean much given how different they are from standard companies.

Sure, but given the fuller picture, how would it make sense that a Cucinelli suit costs more than a bespoke Savile Row suit? You would have to increase the wage so much that it would almost seem fantastical. British wages are, on average, higher than Italian wages. A bespoke suit costs many more hours to make. Bespoke tailors likely pay more for their cloth. Like Cucinelli, they also keep everything domestic. Etc.