Job Referenced:Ethical Question

Originally Posted by Robert Evans

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No, I am a good friend who is loyal and who will help them when they need it. I don't care what some HR jackass on the phone thinks of me, but I care about my friends.

It's funny how you just automatically characterize the HR person as a "jackass." It's nice that you don't jump to conclusions about people. Stick it to the man!

Good to know that you would sell your friends out when they need your help the most.

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Selling someone out is not the same as not feeling comfortable giving a reference. In fact, the term sell out, as used here, often implies subterfuge, which is precisely what I'm advocating against.

Originally Posted by brown eyes

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If it were my friend, I'd write two recommendations, one positive and one neutral/negative.

But before I send the recommendation, I'd sit down with him and talk to him about why I'm doing it. Next I'd tell him, as his friend, that he cannot cut corners, or lie or think about stealing. Then I wait to see what he has to say. If his answer satisfies me, I will send the positive and tear up the neutral/negative one in front of him.

This is really weird.

Yes, give a positive reference. He's your friend. If it bothers you that much, just highlight the good things about the guy. I'm assuming he does have some good qualities or you wouldn't be friends with him in the first place, right?

I was in this situation and I refused to give my friend any recommendation (didn't deserve one anyway). I haven't spoken to him since. I'd still do the same thing if it came down to it though.

Its one of the 10 crack commandments.

Give a good reference. You care more about a company than your friend?

Originally Posted by Teacher

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It's funny how you just automatically characterize the HR person as a "jackass." It's nice that you don't jump to conclusions about people. Stick it to the man!



Selling someone out is not the same as not feeling comfortable giving a reference. In fact, the term sell out, as used here, often implies subterfuge, which is precisely what I'm advocating against.

I say jackass, because you shouldn't remotely care about them. You are helping your friend, not trying to make good with some ******* stranger who has no bearing on your life in any capacity.

If you tell your friend that you are not comfortable giving a reference, prepare yourself to lose that friend one way or another. Maybe you don't care if you do lose him as friend, but he certainly wasn't able to count on you.

Let's say for example, that we have a mutual friend who went to you first to get a reference and you told him that you don't feel "comfortable" helping him out. Then he comes to me for the reference and I say no problem at all man - which results in him getting the job (where he may do well or not), who do you think he is going to view as the better friend and the person he knows he can count on when he needs help?

Zach and I tend to agree on a lot of things, and my own thoughts mirrored his first reaction:

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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I'm actually torn on this. I think, in this case, I would basically say "this person is my friend, I have never worked with him, but I consider him a good personal friend" or something like that.
Assuming that it is true... So...Rugger - do you know this friend professionally? If so...problem. If the stuff in your first post is just your impressions of him, but you have no real evidence of that kind of behavior in a professional sense, then keep it to yourself. It's OK. SF won't tell. So, if I was asked, I would basically begin with 'I have never worked with him, so these are just some impressions I have of X. He is the sort of guy who will [begin list of good characteristics that make you like him]' And if asked for more depth on him professionally, simply say that you don't know, reiterate that you were never his boss or his colleague. That's how I'd play it. Unless you have worked with him and did catch him stealing, in which case, you have to weigh up the professional consequences for yourself of lying for him.

oh....

Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?

Originally Posted by Matt

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oh....

Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?

Originally Posted by Matt

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oh....

Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?

ouch.. busted! So much for the reference

Originally Posted by Matt

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oh....

Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?

Roflmao...literally.

Turning your back on helping friends is a worse trait than what you claimed he did.

Originally Posted by texas_jack

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Give a good reference. You care more about a company than your friend?

It's not about the company, it's about being honest. I have always put morality and the "right thing" above my friends and people around me. I'm not "out to get them" and wont overtly screw them when I can "plead the fifth" but if I am in a position where I either have to do something morally reprehensible or do the right thing, I'm going to do the right thing. More often than not the repercussions that the people involved suffer are their own doing.

I've lost a lot of friends because they're of the character that I try to avoid. They are generally nice people, but just have a different view on things and are out to get theirs. I don't have as many friends, but those I do have( for the most part) don't do anything I wouldn't do.

An example of many- I was riding in my friends car late at night in his ghetto drug dealer style Escalade(my mistake). We get pulled over, pulled out of the car, searched etc. My friend(the driver) was tipsy and he was not of age - they proceed to search the car. In the trunk the find a good amount of weed. The officers separately question us and one of them says we will both be charged unless I say something. So in this situation, I can roll over my friend or take a drug charge that I had absolutely nothing to deal with and had no idea it was there. I rolled over on him in a heartbeat. Now, should I have distanced myself from him from the beginning knowing that he was into that sort of thing - were the drugs an inherent risk to our friendship that I should have accepted from the beginning? Perhaps, but lesson learned. I don't associate with those sort of people anymore.

It might be selfish, and I might be an asshole because of it, but I am NOT going to **** my life up to because of someones elses choices. If I'm a prick, so be it.

However unrelated to the current predicament, you can see my stance on things. I do not know the individual in question in a work environment, merely on a personal level. I can't just "fluff up" the reference because there are specific questions, "have you known person to regularly be dishonest" etc etc. Again, I know this guy doesn't sound like a great friend but I have known him for 20 years and can't just cut it off abruptly.

I think I will just decline to fulfill the paperwork, but what do I say if he asks me about it?

I think the real question is why in the hell would someone use their friend as a reference?

**** that guy, don't send in the paperwork. If I ran a company and got a glowing reference which influenced my decision to hire a complete waste who ***** up, steals, cuts corners, and lies, I would be ******* pissed. Not to mention your own name would be **** if you're in a related field.

"ohhh but it was for my bro! bros man, bros! he lies, cheats, steals, and takes no responsibility... but hes my bro!" See how stupid that reasoning sounds?

Originally Posted by brown eyes

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If it were my friend, I'd write two recommendations, one positive and one neutral/negative.

But before I send the recommendation, I'd sit down with him and talk to him about why I'm doing it. Next I'd tell him, as his friend, that he cannot cut corners, or lie or think about stealing. Then I wait to see what he has to say. If his answer satisfies me, I will send the positive and tear up the neutral/negative one in front of him.

this is a good solomon-esque solution.