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Job Referenced:Ethical Question

Discussion in 'Business, Careers & Education' started by Rugger, Dec 27, 2010.

  1. Robert Evans

    Robert Evans Member

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    Were I in this position, this is how I'd deal with it. But if this friend would make such a bad employee, why did you agree to be a reference in the first place? It seems you've just put yourself into a very uncomfortable position.



    You sound fairly desperate for friends. I suppose that some of us just simply think differently than you do. For some of us, being honest is a higher moral prerogative than getting a lazy, lying possible thief a job.


    What uncomfortable position - you will never know after the fact. Once you finish giving the reference, your involvement is over forever.

    No, I am a good friend who is loyal and who will help them when they need it. I don't care what some HR jackass on the phone thinks of me, but I care about my friends. Good to know that you would sell your friends out when they need your help the most.

    Some people just have a bad employment history for whatever reason and if that person is my friend - I am not going to hold it against them. So yes, we think differently.
     
  2. JayJay

    JayJay Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually torn on this. I think, in this case, I would basically say "this person is my friend, I have never worked with him, but I consider him a good personal friend" or something like that.
    I'd say something similar to this. I try to talk about the qualities of the person that I've seen him exhibit. Honestly, I can't say that I'd endorse a person for employment who is a liar, cheat, and thief. I don't keep friends who display these behaviors.
     
  3. CouttsClient

    CouttsClient Well-Known Member

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    I give glowing endorsements to all of my friends regardless of what I think about them personally. I want them to succeed professionally and if they screw up on the job then it's on them but I won't stand in their way.

    Thankfully I have great friends.
     
  4. Robert Evans

    Robert Evans Member

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    I give glowing endorsements to all of my friends regardless of what I think about them personally. I want them to succeed professionally and if they screw up on the job then it's on them but I won't stand in their way.

    Thankfully I have great friends.


    Exactly.
     
  5. deadly7

    deadly7 Well-Known Member

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    how so? unless the position is within your industry..who gives a flyning fluff!

    When I initially read this I thought the OP's friend was applying to the OP's company or a similar industry. Hence why I said that. If you work in i banking and he is applying to Taco Bell, go ahead.
     
  6. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    No, I am a good friend who is loyal and who will help them when they need it. I don't care what some HR jackass on the phone thinks of me, but I care about my friends.

    It's funny how you just automatically characterize the HR person as a "jackass." It's nice that you don't jump to conclusions about people. Stick it to the man!

    Selling someone out is not the same as not feeling comfortable giving a reference. In fact, the term sell out, as used here, often implies subterfuge, which is precisely what I'm advocating against.
     
  7. bluemagic

    bluemagic Well-Known Member

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    If it were my friend, I'd write two recommendations, one positive and one neutral/negative.

    But before I send the recommendation, I'd sit down with him and talk to him about why I'm doing it. Next I'd tell him, as his friend, that he cannot cut corners, or lie or think about stealing. Then I wait to see what he has to say. If his answer satisfies me, I will send the positive and tear up the neutral/negative one in front of him.


    This is really weird.
     
  8. Jr Mouse

    Jr Mouse Well-Known Member

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    Yes, give a positive reference. He's your friend. If it bothers you that much, just highlight the good things about the guy. I'm assuming he does have some good qualities or you wouldn't be friends with him in the first place, right?
     
  9. Xericx

    Xericx Well-Known Member

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    I was in this situation and I refused to give my friend any recommendation (didn't deserve one anyway). I haven't spoken to him since. I'd still do the same thing if it came down to it though.

    Its one of the 10 crack commandments.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. texas_jack

    texas_jack Well-Known Member

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    Give a good reference. You care more about a company than your friend?
     
  11. Robert Evans

    Robert Evans Member

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    It's funny how you just automatically characterize the HR person as a "jackass." It's nice that you don't jump to conclusions about people. Stick it to the man!



    Selling someone out is not the same as not feeling comfortable giving a reference. In fact, the term sell out, as used here, often implies subterfuge, which is precisely what I'm advocating against.


    I say jackass, because you shouldn't remotely care about them. You are helping your friend, not trying to make good with some fucking stranger who has no bearing on your life in any capacity.

    If you tell your friend that you are not comfortable giving a reference, prepare yourself to lose that friend one way or another. Maybe you don't care if you do lose him as friend, but he certainly wasn't able to count on you.

    Let's say for example, that we have a mutual friend who went to you first to get a reference and you told him that you don't feel "comfortable" helping him out. Then he comes to me for the reference and I say no problem at all man - which results in him getting the job (where he may do well or not), who do you think he is going to view as the better friend and the person he knows he can count on when he needs help?
     
  12. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    Zach and I tend to agree on a lot of things, and my own thoughts mirrored his first reaction:
    I'm actually torn on this. I think, in this case, I would basically say "this person is my friend, I have never worked with him, but I consider him a good personal friend" or something like that.
    Assuming that it is true... So...Rugger - do you know this friend professionally? If so...problem. If the stuff in your first post is just your impressions of him, but you have no real evidence of that kind of behavior in a professional sense, then keep it to yourself. It's OK. SF won't tell. So, if I was asked, I would basically begin with 'I have never worked with him, so these are just some impressions I have of X. He is the sort of guy who will [begin list of good characteristics that make you like him]' And if asked for more depth on him professionally, simply say that you don't know, reiterate that you were never his boss or his colleague. That's how I'd play it. Unless you have worked with him and did catch him stealing, in which case, you have to weigh up the professional consequences for yourself of lying for him.
     
  13. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    oh....

    Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

    Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

    Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Jr Mouse

    Jr Mouse Well-Known Member

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    oh....

    Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

    Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

    Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?


    [​IMG]
     
  15. NH_Clark

    NH_Clark Well-Known Member

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    oh....

    Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

    Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

    Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?


    ouch.. busted! So much for the reference [​IMG]
     
  16. Don Carlos

    Don Carlos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    oh....

    Hey Man -> Riverdog -> Cinematic Soul -> Robert Evans -> rebanning.

    Back to the backlot. Surprised a movie producer of such prominence has the time for us. Five times over.

    Said it before, say it again...is there anything sadder than the internet telling you you are not wanted?


    Roflmao...literally.
     
  17. thonez

    thonez Well-Known Member

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    Turning your back on helping friends is a worse trait than what you claimed he did.
     
  18. Rugger

    Rugger Well-Known Member

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    Give a good reference. You care more about a company than your friend?

    It's not about the company, it's about being honest. I have always put morality and the "right thing" above my friends and people around me. I'm not "out to get them" and wont overtly screw them when I can "plead the fifth" but if I am in a position where I either have to do something morally reprehensible or do the right thing, I'm going to do the right thing. More often than not the repercussions that the people involved suffer are their own doing.

    I've lost a lot of friends because they're of the character that I try to avoid. They are generally nice people, but just have a different view on things and are out to get theirs. I don't have as many friends, but those I do have( for the most part) don't do anything I wouldn't do.

    An example of many- I was riding in my friends car late at night in his ghetto drug dealer style Escalade(my mistake). We get pulled over, pulled out of the car, searched etc. My friend(the driver) was tipsy and he was not of age - they proceed to search the car. In the trunk the find a good amount of weed. The officers separately question us and one of them says we will both be charged unless I say something. So in this situation, I can roll over my friend or take a drug charge that I had absolutely nothing to deal with and had no idea it was there. I rolled over on him in a heartbeat. Now, should I have distanced myself from him from the beginning knowing that he was into that sort of thing - were the drugs an inherent risk to our friendship that I should have accepted from the beginning? Perhaps, but lesson learned. I don't associate with those sort of people anymore.

    It might be selfish, and I might be an asshole because of it, but I am NOT going to fuck my life up to because of someones elses choices. If I'm a prick, so be it.

    However unrelated to the current predicament, you can see my stance on things. I do not know the individual in question in a work environment, merely on a personal level. I can't just "fluff up" the reference because there are specific questions, "have you known person to regularly be dishonest" etc etc. Again, I know this guy doesn't sound like a great friend but I have known him for 20 years and can't just cut it off abruptly.

    I think I will just decline to fulfill the paperwork, but what do I say if he asks me about it?
     
  19. jarude

    jarude Well-Known Member

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    I think the real question is why in the hell would someone use their friend as a reference?

    Fuck that guy, don't send in the paperwork. If I ran a company and got a glowing reference which influenced my decision to hire a complete waste who fucks up, steals, cuts corners, and lies, I would be fucking pissed. Not to mention your own name would be shit if you're in a related field.

    "ohhh but it was for my bro! bros man, bros! he lies, cheats, steals, and takes no responsibility... but hes my bro!" See how stupid that reasoning sounds?
     
  20. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Well-Known Member

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    If it were my friend, I'd write two recommendations, one positive and one neutral/negative.

    But before I send the recommendation, I'd sit down with him and talk to him about why I'm doing it. Next I'd tell him, as his friend, that he cannot cut corners, or lie or think about stealing. Then I wait to see what he has to say. If his answer satisfies me, I will send the positive and tear up the neutral/negative one in front of him.


    this is a good solomon-esque solution.
     

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