New Raphael suit (not mine)

Originally Posted by Despos

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Very astute observation/explanation, I detect you are on to something. I thought this depth of technical analysis was only available on the "advanced forum". If this jacket were unbuttoned I think the fronts would be so open you could see the front trouser pockets.

Here's another shot of the "Astaire" think piece:



- B

^^^ Did Astaire ever wear something so lean and clean?

I am surprised by some of the comments of getting a RTW suit instead, although there are issues with the suit.

1. Bespoke is about the process but from a personal point about quality too - the handwork, cloth quality and durability.

2. Most of us need conservative suits for work, etc. Bespoke suits do not need to scream bespoke.

For fit alone, bespoke will always lose. Taking all the elements into account and the suit being affordable by the person, bespoke is a good option.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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That being said, I do believe that even if the Raphael suit ordered by my friend is merely impeccably 'correct', that in and of itself is an achievement hardly possibly through RTW.

But it's not. The shoulder fit is much better than in the photo Vox posted, but the bunching of material above the waist/under the arms is bad. It doesn't look anywhere near as smoothly fitted as Aportnoy's coat. I sort of agree with an earlier comment that it almost looks as if he had two dropped shoulders, which is obviously less in his physique than in the cut. Whatever this is (besides boring), "impeccable" it isn't.

Originally Posted by literasyme

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But it's not. The shoulder fit is much better than in the photo Vox posted, but the bunching of material above the waist/under the arms is bad. It doesn't look anywhere near as smoothly fitted as Aportnoy's coat. I sort of agree with an earlier comment that it almost looks as if he had two dropped shoulders, which is obviously less in his physique than in the cut. Whatever this is (besides boring), "impeccable" it isn't.
I'm not seeing the bunching--would you mind being more specific? Aportnoy's jacket and Jon's appear to be two completely different animals. The differences appear as stylistic as they are technical. I'm not sure if Raphael has changed his approach, or if Aportnoy got him to do something unique for him, but I don't see how either is technically superior to the other.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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There's no dissonance: good bespoke can be better than good RTW in ways good RTW cannot match, while good RTW can still be good. I never said RTW can't look great--just that I have not seen any that quite matches the best bespoke. Yes, it is valid to discuss whether a bespoke suit looks like a RTW suit, but unless one specifies how he's comparing them, it is difficult to understand the ways in which he believes they are similar. "It looks like RTW Canali" doesn't really enlighten. That being said, I do believe that even if the Raphael suit ordered by my friend is merely impeccably 'correct', that in and of itself is an achievement hardly possibly through RTW.
Sure, good bespoke can be better in ways that good RTW cannot match, just as good RTW can be better in ways that good bespoke often doesn't match. I've seen plenty of RTW on this forum and in the real world that looks as good or better than your buddy's Raph suit which looks lumpy in the mid-section and appears to show poor-fitting pants (see the pooling in the lower thigh), among other things. Lots of the top folks here wear RTW impeccably and favorably compared to this example. While I agree that bespoke is definitely theoretically "better" than RTW, once nice thing about RTW is that you can go out and pick a flattering cut and know that it works. I bet Ed or some other RTW expert could go out and find a jacket that fits your buddy and is more flattering than the one he bought from Raph (which was essentially purchased sight unseen). There is a tremendous amount of risk to going bespoke, you might get something amazing, but you also may get something that looks no better to the casual / semi-expert observer than well-fitting RTW. The biggest problem with buying RTW is when people pick poor models as a starting point. If you turned around and told me that your friend wasn't in fact wearing Raph, but was actually wearing a department store house brand or some Mantoni eBay brand, I wouldn't be surprised. You should realize that you come across as a staunch bespoke defender no matter the circumstances. If people criticize a bespoke suit that you favor, you say that people shouldn't expect bespoke to be miraculous, but you criticize the smallest details in other suits when you choose to. I think what a lot of people have been hitting on, is that while the magic of bespoke may be in the details, the failing of bespoke is in the big picture which is far more important. EDIT: I think literasyne is referring to the draped chest, which looks like bunching in the picture but hopefully plays better in real life.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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It's definitely a romp.

Screenshot of the drawn pattern to which Edwin referred in his LL post that I quote earlier in this thread:

- B

I thought they were supposed to cut a very small armhole. That thing is huge!

so how does two suits from the same tailor look so far apart? did your friend (or yourself) impose or not impose enough on Raphael to get a better looking suit?

for a bespoke number, there are obvious/clear issues with his suit, and it is surprising you claim not to see it (chest, waist suppression, drape of trousers to mention a few).

for the amount of money and energy and time required to go bespoke, it better come out looking above average (at a minimum).

Regardless whether Jon could have achieved a similar fit RTW v. bespoke, the suit looks great on him, and I'm sure he learned a lot in the process, and he probably has a better appreciation for tailored clothing. But I suppose the nitpicking and criticism at the slight crumpling on the sleeves (which I find simply due to the fact he is wearing the suit and fabric does what it does), the waist suppression on his right side or the length of his trousers is what SF is all about. I'm sorry, but some on WAYWT could only hope to look half as good. Agreed that his hair needs a new do.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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^^^ Did Astaire ever wear something so lean and clean?

I don't think so...but your question did encourage me to post up a thread of Astaire in some elegant dinner clothes from 1963.

- B

Foo,

I think you did right by him! I'm not a fan of the shoulders, but I think everything looks cohesive, he looks like he doesnt really focus on wearing expensive clothes.

Knot is sized well, good choice of shoes (black captoe or am i seeing things?).

I think he should fallow up with a charcoal version.

Aportnoy looks great!

Couple points:

The suit is a shade of navy, not grey. The OP mentioned this in post #1

The guy looks military so I'm guessing he wanted a military silhouette, which is fine by me

Where are the pics of the side and back? A complete critique can't be given with only one frontal shot, especially given his overly rigid stance.

All that being said, I do think this result can be had with a RTW suit + a great tailor doing impeccable alterations.

It seems that many here lose sight of the magic a competent tailor can perform when it comes to fit.

If this was a case of extraordinary cloth and pattern, I could see the value. But this guy clearly wanted a standard workhorse suit, so no clue why he'd shell out the $5k for such a purpose.

Originally Posted by jefferyd

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I thought they were supposed to cut a very small armhole. That thing is huge!

I've seldom seen Edwin become emotional, but he had strong feelings about that pattern.

- B

Originally Posted by SkinnyGoomba

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Aportnoy looks great!

Yes, that is a great suit Raphael did for A.

- B

Originally Posted by UnFacconable

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Sure, good bespoke can be better in ways that good RTW cannot match, just as good RTW can be better in ways that good bespoke often doesn't match. I've seen plenty of RTW on this forum and in the real world that looks as good or better than your buddy's Raph suit which looks lumpy in the mid-section and appears to show poor-fitting pants (see the pooling in the lower thigh), among other things. Lots of the top folks here wear RTW impeccably and favorably compared to this example. While I agree that bespoke is definitely theoretically "better" than RTW, once nice thing about RTW is that you can go out and pick a flattering cut and know that it works. I bet Ed or some other RTW expert could go out and find a jacket that fits your buddy and is more flattering than the one he bought from Raph, sight unseen. There is a tremendous amount of risk to going bespoke, you might get something amazing, but you also may get something that looks no better to the casual / semi-expert observer than well-fitting RTW. The biggest problem with buying RTW is when people pick poor models as a starting point. If you turned around and told me that your friend wasn't in fact wearing Raph, but was actually wearing a department store house brand or some Mantoni eBay brand, I wouldn't be surprised. You come across as a staunch bespoke defender no matter the circumstances. If people criticize a bespoke suit that you favor, you say that people shouldn't expect bespoke to be miraculous, but you criticize the smallest details in other suits when you choose to. I think what a lot of people have been hitting on, is that while the magic of bespoke may be in the details, the failing of bespoke is in the big picture which is far more important.
You must not read many of my posts--not that I'd blame you. There is plenty of sub-par bespoke out there, and I frequently criticize it on the forum. I don't see the problems you are talking about with respect to this particular bespoke suit. All I can say is that under my own analysis, it's pretty damned good. Others might come to different conclusions, but it's hard to evaluate them when the underlying analyses aren't clear. I've taken great pains to indicate what I consider good and bad with as much specificity as possible, making extensive use of Photoshop to further illustrate my points. The trouble is that when many people say something is "boring" or "looks no better than RTW," I have no idea what that really means. With respect to your particular criticisms, I simply have to disagree. The bunching at the midsection you mention isn't apparent to me. The "pooling" at the legs merely looks like break--even if there is too much, that hardly indicates poor fitting trousers. The most important aspect of trouser fit, to my mind, is the line you get going down the leg. It is a matter of easy adjustment to get the length and break the way you like it, and much harder to achieve the drape and line that both Jon and Aportnoy's trousers have. Similarly, I find it annoying when people fixate on sleeve length as a point of criticism when there are obviously other, more structural problems with the sleeves. Anyway, we all have different eyes and different preferences. All I can say is that if you look back at my posts and my Get Foofed thread, you'll see that I'm not applying different standards to anything. In accordance with my pre-existing critiques, Jon's Raphael suit is very, very good--particularly for a first order. The vast majority of the RTW suits shown on the forum don't meet the same sort of scrutiny. As for the 'big picture' advantage of RTW, I don't think it exists. It is just as easy to be distracted by certain appealing details when buying RTW as it is when ordering bespoke. This is evident in what we see here on the forum, and in real life: most RTW isn't just bad in the details, but also overall.