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New Raphael suit (not mine)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. furo

    furo Senior member

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    There are some who believe that bespoke should be reserved for 'special' suits that are, detail-wise, out of the ordinary. I have never subscribed to this point-of-view. Point in fact, I choose to invest the absolute most in staple, workhorse garments. Based on my observations, other forum members who regularly order bespoke feel similarly.

    I understand what you're saying. But my contention is that a workhorse suit has a purpose: utility

    So if you gain that utility through RTW + competent tailoring, why go bespoke?

    For the "process??"

    I mean I've heard some silly things on this forum, but the argument to drop $5k for partaking in the "process" of creating a utility workhorse suit is just absurd to me.

    That's probably just my upbringing getting the best of me, but that's the way I see it.
     
  2. holymadness

    holymadness Senior member

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    ^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.
    I was not aware of this. Though I was mistaken in thinking it was an error, it looks somewhat sloppy to my eyes.
    I do see what you're seeing. What I've got on is RTW -- not made for my body. However, the effect you're describing in terms of 'shaping' has been much better realized elsewhere (for example, in vox's suits). Here, the result looks to me like bagginess or sagging just above the buttoning point, with a resulting concavity underneath it. There's too much loose fabric and not enough shape.
     
  3. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    I understand what you're saying. But my contention is that a workhorse suit has a purpose: utility So if you gain that utility through RTW + competent tailoring, why go bespoke? For the "process??" I mean I've heard some silly things on this forum, but the argument to drop $5k for partaking in the "process" of creating a utility workhorse suit is just absurd to me. That's probably just my upbringing getting the best of me, but that's the way I see it.
    If you expect to own it for years and can reasonably afford it, then I dont see any issue with it. Plenty of RTW on this forum in that price range worn in office settings. Average people think i'm totally out of my mind for spending what i do on the suits/jackets I wear to work, its too personal to have a definitive price point assessed for 'work wear'.
     
  4. George

    George Senior member

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    ^^^ I agree that the waist suppression is sharply nipped, as opposed to smoothly curved, but I don't think that is an error. You see it frequently on military-style Savile Row suits.

    As for the chest 'bunching': what I see is shaping in the Raphael jacket, and a lack of shaping in yours. Do you see how the jacket sculpts inwards toward Jon's waist? Maybe I am just imagining things, but that is the kind of shaping that I like to see in a bespoke jacket. Mine exhibit a similar effect.


    Does your soon to be ex-friend know that you have subjected him to all this?
     
  5. Cravate_Noire

    Cravate_Noire Senior member

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    But there's no (or at least shouldn't be) zig-zag crunching around the nipped waist. [​IMG] But then again we have people here who find it absolutely acceptable that some of their bespoke coats look crunchy around the waist/hips because "the shirt is bunching underneath".
     
  6. George

    George Senior member

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    But there's no zig-zag crunching around the nipped waist.

    [​IMG]


    But then again we have people here who find it absolutely acceptable that some of their bespoke coats look crunchy around the waist/hips because "the shirt is bunching underneath".


    That's on a mannequin.
     
  7. joshman

    joshman Senior member

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    Does your soon to be ex-friend know that you have subjected him to all this?

    I do feel sorry for fool's friend and Raphael. I sense that there's a vendetta against foof.
     
  8. furo

    furo Senior member

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    If you expect to own it for years and can reasonably afford it, then I dont see any issue with it. Plenty of RTW on this forum in that price range worn in office settings.

    If I've got the luxury to spend $5k on a suit I'd go bespoke as well, I'm not arguing that at all. My argument is clearly from the value-added perspective. In other words, how much do I need to spend to get the exact same end result in terms of fit and utility?
     
  9. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    Vox,

    I'm curious as to why you consider that OP's suit 80's wallstreet (or 80's NYC finance), in my mind thats more double breasted navy pinstripe with a yellow 'power' tie and a Bengal striped shirt.

    Interested in your thoughts on this one.

    -Also B
     
  10. Cravate_Noire

    Cravate_Noire Senior member

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    That's on a mannequin.
    Really? This power of comprehension blows me away. That's why I said that's how it should be.
     
  11. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    If I've got the luxury to spend $5k on a suit I'd go bespoke as well, I'm not arguing that at all. My argument is clearly from the value-added perspective. In other words, how much do I need to spend to get the exact same end result in terms of fit and utility?
    Value added is dependent entirely on personal standards. I consider anything less then Polo not a worth while pursuit, while others may wonder why I would do that rather then simply buying 3-4 suits at Men's Warehell. The same thing applies here, IMO.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    FWIW, the waist does look off to me, not because it is too tight, but it is hitting his hip bone in an awkward way. I don't know if that is the way he is standing or what.

    Every once in a while I take delivery of a Raphael suit that has some problem that I only really notice after living with it for a while. In every case, I have taken the garment back to Raph, who has fixed the problem fully and without any complaining, denial, or other BS.
     
  13. George

    George Senior member

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    That's why I said how it should be.

    Yes, but you can't offer up a suit that is on a mannequin as an example of how a suit should look or fit, it's a meaningless comparison.
     
  14. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    Vox,

    I'm curious as to why you consider that OP's suit 80's wallstreet (or 80's NYC finance), in my mind thats more double breasted navy pinstripe with a yellow 'power' tie and a Bengal striped shirt.

    Interested in your thoughts on this one.

    -Also B


    I didn't say 80s Wall Street...'twas CEGO-Carl who noted that this cut would be completely uncontroversial in a modern NYC finance house (assuming it is suit day...[​IMG])

    The phrase I used was "the ruined 80s look." The 80s ruined Brooks Brothers. At least through the 70s in NYC and through the early 80s in Boston (dates might differ in other cities), the BB look was still supreme and it made for a coherant and harmonius clothing culture in the professions.

    Then, things like those shoulders on the Raph Foof posts happened, confidence in the Establishment aesthetic disappeared, and well, was replaced.

    - B
     
  15. George

    George Senior member

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    FWIW, the waist does look off to me, not because it is too tight, but it is hitting his hip bone in an awkward way. I don't know if that is the way he is standing or what.

    Every once in a while I take delivery of a Raphael suit that has some problem that I only really notice after living with it for a while. In every case, I have taken the garment back to Raph, who has fixed the problem fully and without any complaining, denial, or other BS.


    It may be the way he's standing, it also depends how long he's been wearing that suit on that day. A suit wont lay perfectly throughout the course of a day. Sitting down, standing up moving around it all as an effect.
     
  16. George

    George Senior member

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    I didn't say 80s Wall Street...'twas CEGO-Carl who noted that this cut would be completely uncontroversial in a modern NYC finance house (assuming it is suit day...[​IMG])

    The phrase I used was "the ruined 80s look." The 80s ruined Brooks Brothers. At least through the 70s in NYC and through the early 80s in Boston (dates might differ in other cities), the BB look was still supreme and it made for a coherant and harmonius clothing culture in the professions.

    Then, things like those shoulders on the Raph Foof posts happened, confidence in the Establishment aesthetic disappeared, and well, was replaced.

    - B


    What is/was the classic Brooks Brothers looks you are referring too?
     
  17. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Can you just stick someone's head on this, pretend it's a chan suit and foof away? I don't have the energy to do so. As for the pooling, I stated it was in the lower thigh, and I guess if you don't see it, there's no amount of foofing that will explain it. I don't think you are making an objective analysis of this fit. Given some of the minute fit issues you point out in nearly every suit you see fit to criticize, it's pretty galling that you fail to acknowledge the shortcomings in this suit which others have also pointed out.

    What difference would it make if it were a Chan? I've seen some excellent Chan, and said so. I apologize for misreading you about the pooling at the thigh, but I still don't see what you are talking about. Nobody's trousers stay perfectly straight all the time--not even Aportnoy's. I've seen issues where there is so much bagging that there is obviously a fit problem (the famous back rise issue discovered by Manton), but I don't see that here. I don't think I've ever taken issue with someone's trousers for fitting like they do on Jon's suit.

    I understand what you're saying. But my contention is that a workhorse suit has a purpose: utility

    I assume by "utility," you mean something like daily wear. Given that, I think it's important to realize that a suit can have that sort of utility, as well as being exceptionally well made and well fitted. It's not like you have to pick one or the other. Anyway, if you're going to spend lots of money on clothes, shouldn't you prioritize those that will experience the most usage? To me, it would be wasting money to do otherwise. Why by a $5k suit, only to have it hang in your closet most of the year?

    However, the effect you're describing in terms of 'shaping' has been much better realized elsewhere (for example, in vox's suits). Here, the result looks to me like bagginess or sagging just above the buttoning point, with a resulting concavity underneath it. There's too much loose fabric and not enough shape.

    In my opinion, Vox's Steed jackets (though impeccable) have less distinctively sculpted shaping around the chest than you see here (or on any of the Rubinaccis posted). I think Vox would agree. It's not a bad thing (maybe just more English?), but I think it shows we are talking past each other.

    Does your soon to be ex-friend know that you have subjected him to all this?

    Yep, he's reading, in fact.

    But then again we have people here who find it absolutely acceptable that some of their bespoke coats look crunchy around the waist/hips because "the shirt is bunching underneath".

    Well, to be fair, when I gain weight, this happens to me.

    That's on a mannequin.

    That's never stopped anyone from drooling over what they consider perfect tailoring before.
     
  18. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    I didn't say 80s Wall Street...'twas CEGO-Carl who noted that this cut would be completely uncontroversial in a modern NYC finance house (assuming it is suit day...[​IMG])

    The phrase I used was "the ruined 80s look." The 80s ruined Brooks Brothers. At least through the 70s in NYC and through the early 80s in Boston (dates might differ in other cities), the BB look was still supreme and it made for a coherent and harmonious clothing culture in the professions.

    Then, things like those shoulders on the Raph Foof posts happened, confidence in the Establishment aesthetic disappeared, and well, was replaced.

    - B


    Suit day [​IMG]

    Thank you for clarifying your point, I see exactly what you mean now.
     
  19. George

    George Senior member

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    Yep, he's reading, in fact.
    Well, if it's any conciliation I think his suit is fine, if a tad conservative. Oh and Jon, since you're reading this. Get your shoes sorted out.!!!
     
  20. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I've seldom seen Edwin become emotional, but he had strong feelings about that pattern. - B
    Not to be indelicate, but what is Hitchcock's pedigree? He has often, um, puzzled me, and if there is such a disconnect between what A&S used to be and what it is now, it would suggest that he did not have the same training that the other cutters did. Or something. Back to Raphael, it looks like he has something in his inbreast pocket, and much of the creasing is consistent with having sat at a desk for a while. He may not look 1000% to some people, but we don't know what he would look like in RTW- maybe this IS a 1000% improvement.
     

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