Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II

Originally Posted by fritzl

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gives me a chuckle, thank you very much.

ever heard of the gg hove? i suspect no.


You think the Hove looks better than the Dover ?

Originally Posted by aj_del

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You think the Hove looks better than the Dover ?

exactly, much better. though, i do not love the heel counter, which is my main concern for both models.

horses for courses.

Originally Posted by DWFII

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You don't have to like it aesthetically but anyone who cannot at least appreciate it has neither the eye nor the sensibilities necessary to recognize or do justice to fine quality anything.

I believe no one has questioned the quality of construction.

Pebblegrain, you're so reliable at complaining about my posts. I forget what your other handle is, which you normally post from. But it's impressive that you care enough about me to keep hounding me for more than a year. Ya got some issues...

Originally Posted by pebblegrain

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they are the ultimate split toes. period.

And oh, since you added "period," I guess that makes it irrefutably true. Ha. The well known EG sellers have been touting the Dover, following EGs lead, and some people love drinking cool-aid.

Originally Posted by Newcomer

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Different strokes for different folks--but I guess my view is that I never would put the Dover and the Norweger in the same sentence because as far as I am concerned, they are very different shoes. And although I am not certain that the Dover is necessarily 'manly,' it does have a simple, rustic quality that I really enjoy.

that's all that counts.

Originally Posted by Newcomer

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And Fritzl, despite almost always having preferences that are the polar opposite of your own, I still always enjoy learning from your posts. With that said, I will likely be in Vienna this summer, so it would be interesting to see these artisans.

let me know. as far as i can make it, i'm always ready, steady, go for a drink.

ps: not sure about your polar opposite view of things...

Originally Posted by Newcomer

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By the way DWFII, being the wealth of knowledge that you are... could you comment on what exactly "round sewing" is? I get the gist of it, and the fact that it is done with a pig bristle, etc., but I know little more than that.
This is a photo of what we call "split and lift" ...really the same technique but done on the grainside of the leather, where the stitching will be seen. It may give you a little better idea of what is going on. Fundamentally, a small awl enters the surface of the first of the two pieces to be joined. Without penetrating all the way through...and remember the leather may be no thicker than one mm... the awl travels (tunnels) through the substance and emerges in the edge. The closer to the exact center of that edge, the better. The point of the awl then enters the exact center of the edge of the second piece. It then travels through the substance and emerges on the surface. When stitched the two pieces of leather are joined edge to edge. Hogs bristles are not absolutely the only alternative--steel bristles (thin steel needles) and even monofilament bristles can all be used. But the hogs bristles are traditional and the concept critical to the technique. Hogs bristles function as needles....a waxed and tapered thread (typically hand made of twisted linen yarn or maybe silk) is plaited/wrapped onto the bristle. It requires a certain finesse and deftness to use bristles. They cannot be forced. But when the bristles are mastered they will turn a corner and find a nearly invisible hole much easier than steel. Naturally, the bristles (one on each end of the thread) are fed into the holes and the stitch is tightened down. The trick is, of course, to hit that edge dead center with the awl and to tighten the stitches uniformly. Round closing (or sometimes called "skin stitching") is done exactly the same as described above but it is done from the underside and the stitching (such as you see in the photo) is hidden from sight. That's what you're seeing on the split toes

Originally Posted by fritzl

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never been to vienna?

this is low standard compared what can be seen there, period

lurk more noob...

...and i'm open to qualified communication. nuff said.

Originally Posted by DWFII

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Round closing ("understitching") is considered one of the most difficult techniques that a maker can bring to a shoe. Especially when done with any kind of finesse. It is also considered the strongest stitch that can be used to close two pieces of leather. It is entirely hand done and is nearly emblematic of everything that makes a high quality shoe.

You don't have to like it aesthetically but anyone who cannot at least appreciate it has neither the eye nor the sensibilities necessary to recognize or do justice to fine quality anything.

I have the Dover's cousin, the Ecton and I am a fan. I wasn't early on but they grew on me to the point that I can see why the japansese magazine fanboys have deemed the Dover the "best" shoe of all and I am looking forward to some Dovers. Doesn't mean that everyone who dislikes it has no taste, as I dislike a bunch of classic shoes, but to dismiss it as a low standard is silly.

As to G&G, I dislike more from them than I like, but I would never questions the quality nor dismiss them off handly as something that can be easily had elsewhere. The Hove, relative to the Dover, has the proportions all wrong, particularly the vamp, for my tastes.

Originally Posted by fritzl

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exactly, much better. though, i do not love the heel counter, which is my main concern for both models.

horses for courses.

What is it you like about the Hove and dislike about the Dover?

Originally Posted by DWFII

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This is a photo of what we call "split and lift" ...really the same technique but done on the grainside of the leather, where the stitching will be seen. It may give you a little better idea of what is going on.

Fundamentally, a small awl enters the surface of the first of the two pieces to be joined. Without penetrating all the way through...and remember the leather may be no thicker than one mm... the awl travels (tunnels) through the substance and emerges in the edge. The closer to the exact center of that edge, the better.

The point of the awl then enters the exact center of the edge of the second piece. It then travels through the substance and emerges on the surface.

When stitched the two pieces of leather are joined edge to edge.

Hogs bristles are not absolutely the only alternative--steel bristles (thin steel needles) and even monofilament bristles can all be used. But the hogs bristles are traditional and the concept critical to the technique.

Hogs bristles function as needles....a waxed and tapered thread (typically hand made of twisted linen yarn or maybe silk) is plaited/wrapped onto the bristle.

It requires a certain finesse and deftness to use bristles. They cannot be forced. But when the bristles are mastered they will turn a corner and find a nearly invisible hole much easier than steel.

Naturally, the bristles (one on each end of the thread) are fed into the holes and the stitch is tightened down. The trick is, of course, to hit that edge dead center with the awl and to tighten the stitches uniformly.

Round closing (or sometimes called "skin stitching") is done exactly the same as described above but it is done from the underside and the stitching (such as you see in the photo) is hidden from sight. That's what you're seeing on the split toes

DFWII,

Can yo explain whey this is stronger than stitching all way through the leather

Not a fan either. Split toes are the antithesis of elegance.

Originally Posted by fritzl

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let me know. as far as i can make it, i'm always ready, steady, go for a drink.

ps: not sure about your polar opposite view of things...

I just meant in regard to shoes--although I certainly enjoy some of the Paprika and Paprika-esque shoes! I will let you know if I make it to the area.

Originally Posted by DWFII

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Thank you very much for the explanation DWFII, very interesting. I never realized just how difficult such a technique actually is.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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As to G&G, I dislike more from them than I like, but I would never questions the quality nor dismiss them off handly as something that can be easily had elsewhere. The Hove, relative to the Dover, has the proportions all wrong, particularly the vamp, for my tastes.

+1. Although I LOVE G&G in general, I find that proportions of the Hove to be much less elegant that the Dover. Just never looked right to me. And I love the Dover on the 606.

Originally Posted by Ich_Dien

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Not a fan either. Split toes are the antithesis of elegance.

Although they may not be elegant, I don't always think that shoes should be elegant all the time. I think chunky, blobby, 'physical' looking shoes can be very appealing.

I love how Dover-discussions always engender such diverse opinions!

Originally Posted by Newcomer

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Although they may not be elegant, I don't always think that shoes should be elegant all the time. I think chunky, blobby, 'physical' looking shoes can be very appealing.


I agree with you here, however the dover is a shoe meant to be paired with formal clothing and to my eye it never goes correctly.

Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie

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And oh, since you added "period," I guess that makes it irrefutably true. Ha. The well known EG sellers have been touting the Dover, following EGs lead, and some people love drinking cool-aid.

ah so you love split toes, and hate the Dover? pray tell

Originally Posted by fritzl

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gives me a chuckle, thank you very much.

ever heard of the gg hove? i suspect no.

Hove is inferior in looks to the Dover on 606.

I don't like 606 for most other designs, but it works perfectly with the Dover.

FWIW, the blind stitch on the Dover is actually closing two pieces of leather. It's functional and I think it's elegant but there's no accounting for taste. That faux stitch seen on some Sutors is decorative and non-functional and I think it looks kinda stupid, and it's really doesn't remind me at all of the Dover stitch.