US Passes France In Wine Consumption

Manton · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by pocketsquareguy

Were did the heavy oak flavor in California Chardonnay come from?

Long story.

Short version: California by and large did not use oak until the late 60s. Then the new wave of vintners started using it to emulate the French and up the quality. It became popular and notable. Then they started to find ways oak the cheaper wines to capitalize on that prestige and popularity. It was short step from there to mass produced chard with wood chips. (Kendall-Jackson).

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by iammatt

Like the great Crus Beaujolais! Unloved, but delicious.

Originally Posted by foodguy

the '09 beaujolais vintage is truly phenomenal. these are perfect examples of what i was saying about delicious wines that just make you happy. anyone who hasn't picked up a case or two of these is really missing the boat. a cru wine from a great producer is terrific, but even dubouef's are great.

funny how we did that.

gomestar · Mar 16, 2011

I'm not a tremendous Beaujolais fan

Gomestar out of the serkle.

I'd rather have a Dolcetto.

Piobaire · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by iammatt

Like the great Crus Beaujolais! Unloved, but delicious.

You have converted me to this, btw.

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by gomestar

I'm not a tremendous Beaujolais fan

Gomestar out of the serkle.

I'd rather have a Dolcetto.

dolcetto, barbera, beaujolais, grenache, chianti normale ... i'll drink a case of these for every burgundy i drink.

Mark from Plano · Mar 16, 2011

Matt turned me on the to the Thivin Cote du Brouilly ($24). It makes me happy.

I will say that so far, I have tended toward the Cote du Brouilly's and some of the lighter styles as opposed to the Morgons/Cote du Py/etc. These seem to me to be trying to hard to be "serious" wines. I think that the lighter style Crus are basically white wine replacements (which is a good thing, IMO), but that that more robust styles don't quite stand up to other more robust wines in my experience. Not that they aren't good...it's just that I don't find them as distinctive and they don't put a smile on my face like a Cote du Brouilly or Brouilly or their ilk does.

That's a VERY broad brush to paint with, but there you go.

EDIT: Also the Bereziat Brouilly ($17).

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by Manton

Long story.

Short version: California by and large did not use oak until the late 60s. Then the new wave of vintners started using it to emulate the French and up the quality. It became popular and notable. Then they started to find ways oak the cheaper wines to capitalize on that prestige and popularity. It was short step from there to mass produced chard with wood chips. (Kendall-Jackson).

good synopsis, but i'm not sure it was kj that pioneered the use of chips ... i think the "innovation" they're most known for was the discovery that though most americans talk dry, they drink sweet. they started vinifying their chardonnays with a smidgen of residual sugar and saw them start to fly off the shelf. it's a very cheap way to make wines taste rounder, fuller and more important. in its own way, just as pernicious as oak chips.
paradoxically, though, some of the wines from their "family" are of extremely high quality.

Piobaire · Mar 16, 2011

And now, in typical US fashion, the Chard pendulum is swinging towards the extreme opposite position. Stainless steel fermented, "never touched oak" Chard is now all the rage with the hoy paloy.

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

i certainly prefer that version. i guess i just like tasting the grape. probably unsophisticated of me.

RSS · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by pocketsquareguy

The French drank about 14 gallons on average in 2008, the latest year with figures available from the Wine Institute, a trade group in San Francisco. That compares with 2.6 gallons for Americans.
Well, I'm carrying my weight ... and a "bit" more.

I'll drink to that.

Manton · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by foodguy

good synopsis, but i'm not sure it was kj that pioneered the use of chips ... i think the "innovation" they're most known for was the discovery that though most americans talk dry, they drink sweet. they started vinifying their chardonnays with a smidgen of residual sugar and saw them start to fly off the shelf. it's a very cheap way to make wines taste rounder, fuller and more important. in its own way, just as pernicious as oak chips.
paradoxically, though, some of the wines from their "family" are of extremely high quality.

I didn't mean that they innovated oak chips, just that they were the biggest user. Sort of like Henry Ford didn't invent the car.

Stonestreet makes great Chard, I was stunned when I learned it was not only owned but founded by Jess Jackson.

Potelle is another great Chard, which they acquired.

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

and hartford court's single-vineyard zinfandels are among the best i've ever tasted.

Piobaire · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by foodguy

i certainly prefer that version. i guess i just like tasting the grape. probably unsophisticated of me.

I hear what you're saying but I think that oversimplifies the issue. What does "taste the grape" really mean, particularly with the Chard grape? I've made the case this is the tabula rasa for wine makers as it's so ready for manipulation. We never really "taste the grape" 100%, as by definition wine making is manipulating the grape. So we're left with to what degree and by what methods, no?

Also, terroir will come into play along with growing methods. I think this is the beginning of manipulation. What type of canopy, how to prune, vine density, etc., along with the choice of terrior.

So while I agree with what you're saying, on some level, I also think on some level it's not an honest position. I'm sure I'm going to catch a raft load of shyte for this position but it's all mine

gomestar · Mar 16, 2011

is terroire a choice?

I suppose vineyard management could be lumped into the "manipulation" category, but I usually don't like to do so. The ones who take the most time and attention with the things like pruning, canopy management, density, etc. are looking for the best grapes they can to make wine. After that, very little needs to be done. I see "manipulation" more as a winemaker taking crappy grapes and then using excessive production methods like secondary malo or loads of oak chips to make their crappy wine appear better.

I guess I see it like coffee - is cafe X using costa rica one day and ethiopian coffee the next product manipulation? Or, should that term be reserved to the instances where people blast 7 pumps of hazelnut syrup in their coffee. Likely apples and oranges here, but it's the best I could do while my mind is being numbed on this awful conference call.

foodguy · Mar 16, 2011

Originally Posted by Piobaire

I hear what you're saying but I think that oversimplifies the issue. What does "taste the grape" really mean, particularly with the Chard grape? I've made the case this is the tabula rasa for wine makers as it's so ready for manipulation. We never really "taste the grape" 100%, as by definition wine making is manipulating the grape. So we're left with to what degree and by what methods, no?

Also, terroir will come into play along with growing methods. I think this is the beginning of manipulation. What type of canopy, how to prune, vine density, etc., along with the choice of terrior.

So while I agree with what you're saying, on some level, I also think on some level it's not an honest position. I'm sure I'm going to catch a raft load of shyte for this position but it's all mine

i don't even know where to begin. i suppose that since we are drinking wine and not eating grapes, piob has won the internet.

US Passes France In Wine Consumption

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