Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread

[reidd]

All,

I feel overwhelmed... I have historically been working with a tailor that has only two options: Loro Piana and Holland and Sherry. When I wanted linen @The Chai recommended Spence Bryson, and now my tailor has that. That makes life easy. I simply had him make my suit with the HS s120 fabrics. I dont even know what book it was from. From their website it could have been snowy river or Target. The fabric is 8.5 oz so I'm guessing snowy river

However, I am now working with a manufacturer (a factory) that has access to many many many mills and merchants. I suddenly feel overwhelmed. I dont know where to start for basic suiting. I'm only going to use their in house unknown cloth for the test fittings. Once I move beyond that I plan to move on to european fabrics. I could keep going with Holland and Sherry, but I could explore VBC/Drapers... but do I do arrivals or 5 star? I could try Ariston and go with their collection of super 120's. Dugdale Merchant Fleece could work. I could even try Huddersfield fine worsted... although from the looks of it they only have 130 in their Bedlam book. I havent even looks into Zegna, Loro Piana, or Scabal, or Doremeuil, yet...

I know I cant go wrong with any of these fabrics... is there any method to choosing, or should I just spin the bottle? I'm leaning towards spinning the bottle unless someone has another way to frame this decision

Fox brothers makes the best cloth in the world at the moment IMO. I would start there for basically everything. If they don't have what you are looking for, go to Dugdales. Italian mills are great for flashier cloths or odd summer jackets.

 

[dukeaw]

Fox brothers makes the best cloth in the world at the moment IMO. I would start there for basically everything. If they don't have what you are looking for, go to Dugdales. Italian mills are great for flashier cloths or odd summer jackets.

is there a consensus or just your opinion? What makes their cloth the best? I assume you are speaking of their entire range, or just their flannels? I am looking at their fox city right now which appears to be their worsted suiting fabric

 

[The Chai]

I personally think fox stuff is overpriced. It's good but I dont feel like I'm getting my bang for my buck unless there's something specific I want

is there a consensus or just your opinion? What makes their cloth the best? I assume you are speaking of their entire range, or just their flannels? I am looking at their fox city right now which appears to be their worsted suiting fabric

 

[dukeaw]

I personally think fox stuff is overpriced. It's good but I dont feel like I'm getting my bang for my buck unless there's something specific I want

That's fair. The factory I'm working with very very reasonable for construction costs for their partially handmade suits, so I may be willing to spend a little extra, as my overall costs are still very reasonable. Although if Dugdale or those others are serviceable I'd be happy with that for everyday wear

Is the consensus that British cloth is considered better than italian cloth for every day suiting? It seems both of you are guiding me towards British mills.

 

[reidd]

is there a consensus or just your opinion? What makes their cloth the best?

I'm not sure its a consensus but my own experience with their cloth (3 bespoke garments) has lead me to this belief. They are a bit unique in the industry in that they are one of the very few totally independent mills, whereas most of the others have become consolidated under much larger corporations; HFW, Harrisons, etc.. I'm not saying cloth from those larger companies is bad, in fact I have had some great experiences with several of them. There just seems to be a greater care, love and attention to detail in the Fox cloth. There's a "secret sauce" in there somewhere that's hard to describe. As noted above, yes you will pay more for it as well.

 

[dukeaw]

I'm not sure its a consensus but my own experience with their cloth (3 bespoke garments) has lead me to this belief. They are a bit unique in the industry in that they are one of the very few totally independent mills, whereas most of the others have become consolidated under much larger corporations; HFW, Harrisons, etc.. I'm not saying cloth from those larger companies is bad, in fact I have had some great experiences with several of them. There just seems to be a greater care, love and attention to detail in the Fox cloth. There's a "secret sauce" in there somewhere that's hard to describe. As noted above, yes you will pay more for it as well.

I appreciate your insight. I will keep that in mind as I explore my cloth options. As I asked the Chai, is there a reason you recommended british mills over italian mills for every day suiting?

 

[The Chai]

That's fair. The factory I'm working with very very reasonable for construction costs for their partially handmade suits, so I may be willing to spend a little extra, as my overall costs are still very reasonable. Although if Dugdale or those others are serviceable I'd be happy with that for everyday wear

Is the consensus that British cloth is considered better than italian cloth for every day suiting? It seems both of you are guiding me towards British mills.

As a generalisation British cloth is hardier and slightly cheaper than Italian cloths where the costs increase due to luxury and design but again boils down to what you want. If you want some cashmere silk blend you'd probably have to go Loro Piana...it is hard to boil it down to point of origin...as noted every mill has its secret sauce

 

[The Chai]

I appreciate your insight. I will keep that in mind as I explore my cloth options. As I asked the Chai, is there a reason you recommended british mills over italian mills for every day suiting?

less expensive and more hardy...qualities you want in everyday suiting...with italian stuff you are generally paying extra for the luxe and design factor

 

[reidd]

That's fair. The factory I'm working with very very reasonable for construction costs for their partially handmade suits, so I may be willing to spend a little extra, as my overall costs are still very reasonable. Although if Dugdale or those others are serviceable I'd be happy with that for everyday wear

Is the consensus that British cloth is considered better than italian cloth for every day suiting? It seems both of you are guiding me towards British mills.

Dugdale is excellent. Like Fox, they are also an independent, however they are a merchant not a mill. I have a couple pieces from them and I love them.

English vs. Italian is somewhat subjective. If you lean toward more traditional dressing, I think English is the way to go. English is generally heavier, more matte in finish and generally more old fashioned looking (in a very good way). Italian cloth is usually lighter, softer and comes in more adventurous patterns and colors. They can be great for certain garments. It just depends on what you want.

 

[dukeaw]

@The Chai @reidd Thank you both for your insights. You've given me greater context to mills i should look to and how I should consider them. I'll browse Dugdale, Fox, Bateman, HFW, and Holland and Sherry for my daily suiting and take them all into consideration and see if I can get some samples.

I'm already familiar with HS so I might try one of the others

Thanks

 

[The Chai]

@The Chai @reidd Thank you both for your insights. You've given me greater context to mills i should look to and how I should consider them. I'll browse Dugdale, Fox, Bateman, HFW, and Holland and Sherry for my daily suiting and take them all into consideration and see if I can get some samples.

I'm already familiar with HS so I might try one of the others

Thanks

For me there is a major difference in price factor as well...A standard worsted from Dugdales, Bateman etc will run you 40-60 pounds on average for metre whereas most italian worsteds from say draper will run you at 80 USD per metre. The linens from the mill I directed you are considerably cheaper than a standard Solbiati linen which starts at 80 usd per metre...

 

[dukeaw]

For me there is a major difference in price factor as well...A standard worsted from Dugdales, Bateman etc will run you 40-60 pounds on average for metre whereas most italian worsteds from say draper will run you at 80 USD per metre. The linens from the mill I directed you are considerably cheaper than a standard Solbiati linen which starts at 80 usd per metre...

hmm... that is quite a difference. at 40-60 pounds at dugdale vs fox at 155 pounds is a real consideration. However, on the Bateman site it appears their supreme classic collection is around 96 pounds per meter. Or is it that my manufacturer can get a more attractive price than what is listed on their site?

 

[The Chai]

hmm... that is quite a difference. at 40-60 pounds at dugdale vs fox at 155 pounds is a real consideration. However, on the Bateman site it appears their supreme classic collection is around 96 pounds per meter. Or is it that my manufacturer can get a more attractive price than what is listed on their site?

Your tailor would get trade pricing which is considerably cheaper. Their worsted run at 50ish pounds. Their mohairs are some of the cheapest in the market currently at 56 gbp per metre.

 

[CorozoButton]

Dugdale is excellent. Like Fox, they are also an independent, however they are a merchant not a mill. I have a couple pieces from them and I love them.

English vs. Italian is somewhat subjective. If you lean toward more traditional dressing, I think English is the way to go. English is generally heavier, more matte in finish and generally more old fashioned looking (in a very good way). Italian cloth is usually lighter, softer and comes in more adventurous patterns and colors. They can be great for certain garments. It just depends on what you want.

Could I ask what Dugdale cloths you've made up? I've been looking at them for a couple of bits.

 

[reidd]

Could I ask what Dugdale cloths you've made up? I've been looking at them for a couple of bits.

I have used a linen from "Natural Elements" (probably made by Spence Bryson), "Equinox" cotton gabardine, a tweed from the "White Rose" book, and a cavalry twill also from that book (both probably made by Lovat). All very good.