The Ultimate Rug and Carpet Thread

[TheFoo]

Supposedly from the 1920's.

http://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/rugs-carpets/moroccan-rugs/antique-beni-ourain-rug-1/id-f_682704/

 

[zalb916]



Using this as a comparator and adjusting for size, a fair price for the one he bought is about $1000 USD, including the story . . . before haggling.

I actually don't think that's a fair comparator. The dealer who sold foo his rug has a more reputable appearing set-up than an etsy shop. That's not to say the etsy dude's rugs are more or less authentic or that the other dealer actually is reputable, but the other dealer at least has a better claim to being reputable. He's also got better pictures and nicer looking goods, in general. Those things all help make his prices justifiably higher than the etsy dude's prices.

 

[TheFoo]

One thing to keep in mind is that these rugs were not only recenly discovered, though they have clearly become fashionable lately. Modernists like Corbusier were into them in the early part of the 20th century. Hence, most vintage rugs today (say, made over the past few decades) are likely to show some sort of influence from outside tastes.

For example, I've read that the use of borders is indeed the result of outside influence--but that influence goes back at least a century. Beni Ourain rugs from the early 20th century sometimes have borders.

 

[TheFoo]



It's my understanding that traditional/vintage Beni Ourain rugs generally do not have borders and almost always have imprecise, asymmetric, abstract patterns. Your pictures show a border that looks contemporary. On most vintage Beni Ourain rugs, if there is a border, it is usually not very clean and exact, like yours is. Your rug also has almost perfectly symmetrical patterns, which would be unusual for an authentic vintage Beni Ourain. It also lacks some of the additional smaller symbols, which are commonly found inside the grid patterns of vintage Beni Ourain rugs.

Like I mentioned earlier in my response to another poster, I've done some research on this and found that regular, symmetrical patterns and borders do appear on vintage rugs. My understanding is that the borders are indeed from outside influence, but that influence itself is quite old. You see antique rugs a hundred years old or so with borders.

I'm not sure what you mean about the border being more or less "defined." There is no magic behind it--it's just where the shoots are woven into the rug. The darkness of the wool used and the angles at which the pile pieces are falling will make any design element look more or less crisp.

 

[TheFoo]

Also, the dealer I used sells "new" rugs as well. Perhaps it's a ploy to imply that the ones advertised as old are truly old, but that seems a little too contrived. Furthermore, not all of the rugs are in similarly good condition. This one was marketed as being in particularly excellent shape and was priced at a bit of premium versus others of a similar size.

 

[TheFoo]



1. Nice carpet
2. The concept of "market price" doesn't really exist when you have insufficient liquidity/transaction volume/transparency/standardlization

I think your frustration is you asked everyone for "market price" and everyone tells you what they think the price ought to be, had it been an open bid, that would have been the "market price" for you. Anyway the fact you just bought it means you probably establish one side the price, you can be sure the same dealer will not charge the next guy from NYC less than what he just charged you, at least he wouldn't go down on it initially.

You are right, a global market price is just about impossible to ascertain. However, you know what particular market I am in. I am not on the ground in Morocco trading rugs. I am not a rug dealer. I'm a guy in New York who wants to buy from a distance for personal use. Given that context, it isn't so ridiculous to talk about what price is "market." In other words, what prices are being paid by people in similar circumstances?

I am not frustrated with people throwing out prices. That's what I was looking for. What frustrates me is certain posters bent on assuming the carpet is fake (it might be) or that it is not intrinsically worth what anybody is willing to pay.

The point here was not to assess whether the rug was genuine, or whether one personally cares about a rug's story, but what such a rug is worth to people in a market like mine, assuming everything advertised is accurate.

 

[zalb916]



I'm not sure what you mean about the border being more or less "defined." There is no magic behind it--it's just where the shoots are woven into the rug. The darkness of the wool used and the angles at which the pile pieces are falling will make any design element look more or less crisp.

Your rug has a very distinct border, i.e. it appears considerably more "defined" from the rest of the rug.

 

[TheFoo]



Your rug has a very distinct border, i.e. it appears considerably more "defined" from the rest of the rug.

This is why it helps to understand how these things are made.

The border is not painted on. It is the result of weaving darker-colored wool shoots into the rug, in a linear pattern. There is no way to make the border intrinsically more or less defined. It is either there, or it isnt. The way it appears in photos is another issue.

 

[TheFoo]

Anyway, did you see the antique one posted above? The design is almost identical to mine.

 

[zalb916]



This is why it helps to understand how these things are made.

The border is not painted on. It is the result of weaving darker-colored wool shoots into the rug, in a linear pattern. There is no way to make the border intrinsically more or less defined. It is either there, or it isnt. The way it appears in photos is another issue.

This is a close-up of the border of the rug you just posted:

This is a close-up of the border of the one you purchased:

The first picture does not have a distinct border. The rug simply extends to the edges, which are defined by different colored wool. There is not change in the weaving or the construction, just changes in color.

Your rug is constructed differently. The rug doesn't just extend to the edge and have different color wool. The rug stops, and a defined border is constructed. You can see the backing. It is incorporated into the design of the border. The heart of the rug stops, and a border is defined by more than just different color wool.

 

[zalb916]



Anyway, did you see the antique one posted above? The design is almost identical to mine.

Yes, it looks pretty similar. I didn't say the design of your rug never occurred in the past. I said it was pretty uncommon to see that particular design so symmetrical and without other symbols. That appears to be one of the less common examples. For every rug like that, you will probably find 50 that are asymmetrical and/or with other symbols.

I've said several times that I think you got a reasonable deal, that I like your rug, and that I prefer it to the other more common vintage designs. I'm not trying to give you a hard time or to prove you wrong. I'm just engaging in conversation and providing information about this subject.

 

[Bounder]



I actually don't think that's a fair comparator. The dealer who sold foo his rug has a more reputable appearing set-up than an etsy shop. That's not to say the etsy dude's rugs are more or less authentic or that the other dealer actually is reputable, but the other dealer at least has a better claim to being reputable. He's also got better pictures and nicer looking goods, in general. Those things all help make his prices justifiably higher than the etsy dude's prices.

Good point. The "About Us" and the "Contact" sections of Foo's dealer's website really do increase your comfort level.

Whereas if you click through to the Etsy guy's website, you can see that he has two actual shops, one in Morocco and one in the South of France. And you know how the French are.

http://www.beniouarain.com/qui-sommes-nous.php

 

[zalb916]



Good point. The "About Us" and the "Contact" sections of Foo's dealer's website really do increase your comfort level.

Eh. That's just a generic web site template. The contact information and information about the dealer can pretty easily be found on the site.

 

[TheFoo]

Bounder, what bothers me is your insistence on judging based on circumstantial factors, when I have repeatedly agreed that there is no way to be sure of the rug's provenance. It could be fake, sure. What I'm interested in is how to think of its value assuming it's real. Now, can we move past the appearance of the dealer's website?

If you don't know enough based on what you can see in the rug itself to make an assessment, just say so.

 

[Bounder]



Eh. That's just a generic web site template. The contact information and information about the dealer can pretty easily be found on the site.

Really? This is the best I could find, though I might not have done a very exhaustive search.

We are coming to Marrakech, can we visit the Beyond Marrakech Boutique?
Yes, you are very welcome to visit us! In our show room you can see all the available items in person.

Where are you located?
We work and live in the Ourika Valley, a beautiful 45 minute drive from central Marrakech into the High Atlas Mountains.

As an aside, one of my rules to live by is never buy anything from a site where you can't easily find a physical address and, preferably, a phone number. "The Ourika Valley" doesn't quite do it for me.

I would be pretty disinclined to buy a carpet on-line, but if I had to choose one of these, I would be substantially more comfortable dealing with the French guys. At least they have some reputational skin in the game. All Mystery Internet Carpet Dealer has to do to get a fresh start is change his URL.