St. Crispin's Appreciation Thread

[acapaca]

Not necessarily in reply to anything specific, but to zoom out again to big-picture thoughts or concerns, I sense a certain kind of wanting to have the cake and eat it too with some of the arguments. Like, we hear that getting a perfect (or even great) fit from a bespoke shoe is hard, and that you might shouldn't even expect it till your third go or so with the maker. We see plenty of stories about bespoke experiences gone wrong. The shoemakers themselves will tell us how complicated this whole thing is, with the extraordinary architecture of the foot and how it moves, and how many moving parts there are and how you have to know just exactly what you are looking for, and even then how to interpret what you see when you find it.

So, the job is so hard and so complex that you need a certain kind of seasoned pro to do it. But if it doesn't work out well, it's because the job is so hard and complex.

I wonder if sometimes the answer shouldn't be that we need to make the job simpler, with fewer moving parts and not more. Like, maybe sometimes we shouldn't be putting tools in the hands of those who don't know how to use them. (Or maybe we shouldn't be reinventing the wheel last.) Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely certain that there are plenty of shoemakers who consistently turn out great products that provide exquisite fits that the customers could not have found in RTW. But I also see plenty of stories about 'elite' makers who don't get it right.

 

[Manuel]

The subject is very funny, however I ask myself some questions, If you do not know how the 3D system works, how can you say if it is good or bad or ..... say that it will never replace a human being?
Perhaps it is not being used as it should or perhaps not by the people who do and have no experience in the trade.
Right now, if someone very experienced in making custom footwear were perfectly trained in the management of the program and its functions, they would simply "hallucinate".
And no, it still cannot replace human hands but sooner or later it will.
It is not all about taking steps to make a good shoe, as has been said here, what is really important is to adjust that last to what we have taken taking into account many other details.
When you manage and master a 3D program, you can modify all the parameters that you consider convenient, with the advantage that the program will create what you want and not what the scanner has taken. You are going to design a last with your measurements, not the ones that the scanner has taken later on, you are not going to prepare a last by sticking pieces of leather and filing to shape it, the program sends the information to a milling machine and it will manufacture a pair of lasts with the measurements that you gave him, then on the 3 D last he will facilitate the shoe patterns with an "infinite" variety and so on .....

In the manufacture of orthopedic insoles many years ago, the pressure platform appeared, a computer system capable of detecting a small 05 mm dismetry with a recognition of the patient in both dynamics and statics, today the system, after analyzing the patient, he advises you what type of insole is the most effective, what type of material is the best and what heights should you take and manufactures the insoles ......... that was unthinkable just a few years ago .... ...
Problem, as someone said earlier, there are very few good shoemakers and introducing this system is expensive and takes a long time to learn how to use it.

 

[reddargon]

While we're at it explain to me what hobbies, interests, and socializing you've engaged in, in lieu of pursuing some cheaper, more quickly and more easily acquired cachet branded box?

Posting to Facebook and Twitter and their clones...including Styleforum... do not qualify as interaction with real human beings.

And mail order shoes don't even come close.

Aside from the that that this very much is interaction with real human beings (you are not a bot, correct?), this is of course not what I was referring to when I mention socializing. And in any event, the comment wasn't even about me--the idea is not to free up time for the consumer, it frees up time for the producers. Automation is going to eventually come for nearly all professions, with the consequence that humans in those professions will have more free time once their profession is partially or wholly replaced. Some professions are much farther away from this reality than others.

Of course, if your hobby/interest is shoemaking, this is a moot point. You don't need automation to replace your job, as your job is your passion. You are lucky; many (most) people don't feel this way, and would probably rather their job be replaced with automation so they could pursue other passions (assuming they were able to obtain a proper income somehow, this is where universal basic income comes in, but that's another can of worms).

As I stated before, I don't think automation will completely phase out human craft (shoemaking or otherwise). Some people will always enjoy the craft, that will be their hobby, and others will enjoy purchasing human-made shoes. There will be a market for it, although it will be quite small (and let's be honest, it's already quite small today).

I believe we can probably all agree that machine (as it pertains to Bespoke shoe making) will never replace humans. Saying that, I think the majority believe that machines (via a 3D system) are meant for ancillary support not replacement.

At the risk of being inflammatory, I do not agree that never is a correct characterization. We aren't there yet, it will probably take decades if not longer, but as AI advances I see no reason why it couldn't create bespoke shoes, from start to finish, as effectively (and far more efficiently) than humans. That being said, many enthusiasts will still prefer purchasing human-made shoes, although I imagine even this will fade over time. That is, if humanity doesn't destroy itself first.

Anyway, I don't there's so much more to say here. Short version is, the craft of producing shoes by human hand will probably always be in demand and appreciated by some small subset of people, but automation is going to continue to replace human production in all sectors.

 

[DWFII]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...we heard all these arguments / excuses about GYW a hundred years ago--same as we are hearing about 3D modeling in the last couple of posts.

Yes, GYW was successfully implemented although it was a strictly mechanical technique / system. And to what end? It was supposed to make the whole process cheaper, faster, easier and increase the bottom line. Which, when you come right down to it, is the overriding goal of all these 'innovations'.

Yes, the owner of the company got a new boat. Went on extended holidays with his "free time".

And skilled shoemakers by the thousands lost their livelihoods. I guess you could say, they too, found more "free time." But, aside from the human suffering incurred, along with them went the knowledge and skills and insights. Ignorance became the new normal. We have lost so much. Most factory owners...most factory workers...have never made a shoe by hand, never could, even if they wanted to.

And along with the pensioned off shoemakers, went any real appreciation for what objective, demonstrable quality is in a shoe. Across the board. Society wide, culture wide.

I am not bragging when I say that many old hands and moderators have told me that until I came here and began to harp on "objective, demonstrable quality", GYW shoes were the Gold Standard. Why is that? Simply because most didn't care, most didn't want to know. Most still don't.

But the salient fact is that the only people GYW benefited is the major companies by creating a bigger profit margin--a point I have made again and again in this discussion. It also afforded them a measure of control over our lives and perceptions.

But did it create a better shoe? The unequivocal...and again, demonstrable...answer is "no." And still most don't care.

In fact, the GYW process created an almost irresistible impulse to further dumb down other parts of the process, if only because it destroyed the resources that make good shoes possible--good insole material, long staple linen yarn, pine pitch and rosin, etc.. Sure, you can still find some of this stuff (if you look hard enough), but even if it is any where near the quality of yore, the industries that created these materials are 'walking dead.' And no comparable substitutes...no need.

And the beat goes on--now or soon, cement sole construction will become the new Gold Standard, it already happening. Paperboard insoles the new Gold Standard. Etc..

How long before faux leather uppers become acceptable? Because the same forces are at work in the Leather industry. People who know leather will tell you that even the best contemporary leathers cannot hold a candle to what was produced in the past--leather that would hold fifty+ stitches per inch where today 22spi is pushing it. Why is all that? It's because in their quest for more money and for more "free time", the cattle industry has shortened the time to slaughter. Made it "cheaper, faster and easier."

When it comes to objective quality...and mastery, and excellence..."speed kills." So we accept less. And make excuses to justify our indifference and our paucity of understanding and our preferred state of ignorance. We glorify the mediocre, revel in any and all leveling processes that make as many people as possible equally poor of spirit, and look for more shortcuts and ways to speed things up. And part of the problem there is that in virtually every case historically or otherwise, once we commit to mediocrity, there is no going back. Once the devil has us, he never lets go.

How long before the very concept of hand made shoes or even the Trade of shoemaking is considered too quaint, too passe' and too attenuated to exist?

3D modeling, as much a hashish pipe dream as it is, is an example. Not particularly a singular or unique one. We all want magic. And divine intervention. And less hassle, less effort, and damn sure fewer growing pains.

It's all part of the same mind set, people.

 

[meister]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...we heard all these arguments / excuses about GYW a hundred years ago as we are hearing about 3D modeling in the last couple of posts.

Yes, GYW was successfully implemented although it was a strictly mechanical technique / system. And to what end? It was supposed to make the whole process cheaper, faster, easier and increase the bottom line. Which, when you come right down to it, is the overriding goal of all these 'innovations'.

Yes, the owner of the company got a new boat. Went on extended holidays with his "free time"..

And skilled shoemakers by the thousands lost their livelihoods. I guess you could say, they too, found more "free time." But, aside from the human suffering incurred, along with them went the knowledge and skills and insights. Ignorance became the new normal. We have lost so much. Most factory owners...most factory workers...have never made a shoe by hand, never could, even if they wanted to.

But beyond that, along with the pensioned off shoemakers, went any real appreciation for what objective, demonstrable quality is in a shoe. Across the board. Society wide, culture wide.

I am not bragging when I say that many old hands and moderators have told me that until I came here and began to harp on "objective, demonstrable quality", GYW shoes were the Gold Standard. Why is that? Simply because most didn't care, most didn't want to know. Most still don't.

But the salient fact is that the only people GYW benefited is the major companies by creating a bigger profit margin--a point I have made again and again in this discussion. It also afforded them a measure of control over your lives and perceptions.

But did it create a better shoe? The unequivocal...and again, demonstrable...answer is "no." And most don't care.

In fact, the GYW process created an almost irresistible impulse to further dumb down other parts of the process, if only because it destroyed the resources that make good shoes possible--good insole material, long staple linen yarn, pine pitch and rosin, etc.. Sure, you can still find some of this stuff (if you look hard enough), but even if it is any where near the quality of yore, the industries that created these materials are 'walking dead.'

And the beat goes on--now or soon, cement sole construction will become the new Gold Standard. Paperboard insoles the new Gold Standard. Etc..

How long before faux leather uppers become acceptable? Because the same forces are at work in the Leather industry. People who know leather will tell you that even the best contemporary leathers cannot hold a candle to what was produced in the past--leather that would hold fifty+ stitches per inch where today 22spi is pushing it. Why is all that? It's because in their quest for more money and for more "free time" the cattle industry has shortened the time to slaughter. Made it "cheaper, faster and easier."

When it comes to objective quality...and mastery and excellence..."speed kills." So we accept less. And make excuses to justify our indifference and our paucity of understanding and our preferred state of ignorance. We glorify the mediocre, revel in any and all leveling processes that make as many people as possible equally poor of spirit, and look for more shortcuts and ways to speed things up.

How long before the very concept of hand made shoes or even the Trade of shoemaking is considered too quaint and too attenuated to exist?

3D modeling, as much a hashish pipe dream as it is, is an example. Not particularly a singular or unique one. We all want magic. And divine intervention. And less hassle, less effort, and damn sure fewer growing pains.

It's all part of the same mind set, people.

That's it from a man who knows. A sad sad situation.

 

[deez shoes]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...we heard all these arguments / excuses about GYW a hundred years ago--same as we are hearing about 3D modeling in the last couple of posts.

Yes, GYW was successfully implemented although it was a strictly mechanical technique / system. And to what end? It was supposed to make the whole process cheaper, faster, easier and increase the bottom line. Which, when you come right down to it, is the overriding goal of all these 'innovations'.

Yes, the owner of the company got a new boat. Went on extended holidays with his "free time".

And skilled shoemakers by the thousands lost their livelihoods. I guess you could say, they too, found more "free time." But, aside from the human suffering incurred, along with them went the knowledge and skills and insights. Ignorance became the new normal. We have lost so much. Most factory owners...most factory workers...have never made a shoe by hand, never could, even if they wanted to.

And along with the pensioned off shoemakers, went any real appreciation for what objective, demonstrable quality is in a shoe. Across the board. Society wide, culture wide.

I am not bragging when I say that many old hands and moderators have told me that until I came here and began to harp on "objective, demonstrable quality", GYW shoes were the Gold Standard. Why is that? Simply because most didn't care, most didn't want to know. Most still don't.

But the salient fact is that the only people GYW benefited is the major companies by creating a bigger profit margin--a point I have made again and again in this discussion. It also afforded them a measure of control over our lives and perceptions.

But did it create a better shoe? The unequivocal...and again, demonstrable...answer is "no." And still most don't care.

In fact, the GYW process created an almost irresistible impulse to further dumb down other parts of the process, if only because it destroyed the resources that make good shoes possible--good insole material, long staple linen yarn, pine pitch and rosin, etc.. Sure, you can still find some of this stuff (if you look hard enough), but even if it is any where near the quality of yore, the industries that created these materials are 'walking dead.' And no comparable substitutes...no need.

And the beat goes on--now or soon, cement sole construction will become the new Gold Standard, it already happening. Paperboard insoles the new Gold Standard. Etc..

How long before faux leather uppers become acceptable? Because the same forces are at work in the Leather industry. People who know leather will tell you that even the best contemporary leathers cannot hold a candle to what was produced in the past--leather that would hold fifty+ stitches per inch where today 22spi is pushing it. Why is all that? It's because in their quest for more money and for more "free time", the cattle industry has shortened the time to slaughter. Made it "cheaper, faster and easier."

When it comes to objective quality...and mastery, and excellence..."speed kills." So we accept less. And make excuses to justify our indifference and our paucity of understanding and our preferred state of ignorance. We glorify the mediocre, revel in any and all leveling processes that make as many people as possible equally poor of spirit, and look for more shortcuts and ways to speed things up.

How long before the very concept of hand made shoes or even the Trade of shoemaking is considered too quaint, too passe' and too attenuated to exist?

3D modeling, as much a hashish pipe dream as it is, is an example. Not particularly a singular or unique one. We all want magic. And divine intervention. And less hassle, less effort, and damn sure fewer growing pains.

It's all part of the same mind set, people.

The avg. consumer is not very smart

 

[Encore]

From the weekend.

 

[Manuel]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...we heard all these arguments / excuses about GYW a hundred years ago--same as we are hearing about 3D modeling in the last couple of posts.

Yes, GYW was successfully implemented although it was a strictly mechanical technique / system. And to what end? It was supposed to make the whole process cheaper, faster, easier and increase the bottom line. Which, when you come right down to it, is the overriding goal of all these 'innovations'.

Yes, the owner of the company got a new boat. Went on extended holidays with his "free time".

And skilled shoemakers by the thousands lost their livelihoods. I guess you could say, they too, found more "free time." But, aside from the human suffering incurred, along with them went the knowledge and skills and insights. Ignorance became the new normal. We have lost so much. Most factory owners...most factory workers...have never made a shoe by hand, never could, even if they wanted to.

And along with the pensioned off shoemakers, went any real appreciation for what objective, demonstrable quality is in a shoe. Across the board. Society wide, culture wide.

I am not bragging when I say that many old hands and moderators have told me that until I came here and began to harp on "objective, demonstrable quality", GYW shoes were the Gold Standard. Why is that? Simply because most didn't care, most didn't want to know. Most still don't.

But the salient fact is that the only people GYW benefited is the major companies by creating a bigger profit margin--a point I have made again and again in this discussion. It also afforded them a measure of control over our lives and perceptions.

But did it create a better shoe? The unequivocal...and again, demonstrable...answer is "no." And still most don't care.

In fact, the GYW process created an almost irresistible impulse to further dumb down other parts of the process, if only because it destroyed the resources that make good shoes possible--good insole material, long staple linen yarn, pine pitch and rosin, etc.. Sure, you can still find some of this stuff (if you look hard enough), but even if it is any where near the quality of yore, the industries that created these materials are 'walking dead.' And no comparable substitutes...no need.

And the beat goes on--now or soon, cement sole construction will become the new Gold Standard, it already happening. Paperboard insoles the new Gold Standard. Etc..

How long before faux leather uppers become acceptable? Because the same forces are at work in the Leather industry. People who know leather will tell you that even the best contemporary leathers cannot hold a candle to what was produced in the past--leather that would hold fifty+ stitches per inch where today 22spi is pushing it. Why is all that? It's because in their quest for more money and for more "free time", the cattle industry has shortened the time to slaughter. Made it "cheaper, faster and easier."

When it comes to objective quality...and mastery, and excellence..."speed kills." So we accept less. And make excuses to justify our indifference and our paucity of understanding and our preferred state of ignorance. We glorify the mediocre, revel in any and all leveling processes that make as many people as possible equally poor of spirit, and look for more shortcuts and ways to speed things up. And part of the problem there is that in virtually every case historically or otherwise, once we commit to mediocrity, there is no going back. Once the devil has us, he never lets go.

How long before the very concept of hand made shoes or even the Trade of shoemaking is considered too quaint, too passe' and too attenuated to exist?

3D modeling, as much a hashish pipe dream as it is, is an example. Not particularly a singular or unique one. We all want magic. And divine intervention. And less hassle, less effort, and damn sure fewer growing pains.

It's all part of the same mind set, people.

Exactly, unfortunately it is so.
In my country, 47 million inhabitants, there is no one dedicated to making custom footwear ...... you do not find repairing shoemakers, in the end it has been imposed what to use and throw and .... "the worse for the user, better for the factories "....... it is a disgrace but it is so ....... sad!

 

[DWFII]

^

I was having a variation of this self-same discussion with a British maker over on the Crispin Colloquy...although it took a little different tack, if only because we seem to be in sync regarding these issues.

It started with a lament that the great Scotch distilleries have all been bought out by corporations--Hennessy, Diageo, etc.--outfits whose 'job one' is not to make the best single malt whisky they can but rather to make the most money they can.

And, by extension, the irrefutable fact that those brands that have been folded into the corporate blanket, such as Highland Park (my auld go-to), have lost it entirely.Only the 12 continues as it was.

How many great distilleries do we need to lose to mediocrity before we realize that dumbing-down what we think of as 'good'...nevermind great...is contrary to our own best interests.

The problem is that once a company makes such a decision--to sell out, to convert to machine processes--it can seldom, if ever go back. Once the decision to seek a digital 3D solution to the fitting conundrum is sought, the option to engage real, human fitters starts to diminish, if only because so do they.

I know of a major, well known, long established work boot company that wanted to change its lasts. But when it came to do, so they not only didn't have anyone in-house that knew how to do it, they didn't have any contacts in the industry that could. They ended up turning to my friend at Colonial Williamsbug to do the work. And while he's extremely knowlegeable in that regard, his main pursuit is archeology and shoe history.

Every decision we make in life constrains our subsequent options. A decision tree is formed and backtracking is not possible. Once the devil has us, he never lets go.

I was thinking about musical instruments in this regard. We'll never see the likes of the Cremona makers again...ever...despite the best of intentions and the most optimistic of wishful (did someone say hallucinogenic?) thinking. We'll never see anything remotely comparable, short of someone diligently trying to reproduce such instruments in the smallest and most arcane detail.

I suspect few if any of the 'brave new worlders' here, really and truly regret it.

But surely the ignominy of those great distilleries is of universal concern. ??

It's all part of the same mind-set, people.

 

[Manuel]

^

I was having a variation of this self-same discussion with a British maker over on the Crispin Colloquy...although it took a little different tack, if only because we seem to be in sync regarding these issue.

.It started with a lament that the great Scotch distilleries have all been bought out by corporations--Hennessy, Diageo, etc.--outfits whose 'job one' is not to make the best single malt whisky they can but rather to make the most money they can.

And, by extension, the irrefutable fact that those brands that have been folded into the corporate blanket, such as Highland Park (my auld go-to), have lost it entirely.

How many great distilleries do we need to lose to mediocrity before we realize that dumbing-down what we think of as 'good' (nevermind great) is contrary to our own best interest.

The problem is that once a company makes such a decision--to sell out, to convert to machine processes--it can seldom, if ever go back. Once the decision to seek a digital 3D solution to the fitting conundrum is sought, the option to engage real, human fitters starts to close, if only because they'll no longer exist.

I know of a major, well known, long established work boot company that wanted to change its lasts but when it came to do so they not only didn't have anyone in-house that knew how to do it, they didn't have any contacts in the industry that could. They ended up turning to my friend at Colonial Williamsbug to do the work. And while he's extremely knowlegeable in that regard, his main pursuit is archeology and shoe history.

Every decision we make in life constrains our subsequent options. A decision tree is formed and backtracking is not possible. Once the devil has us, he never lets go.

I was thinking about musical instruments in this regard. We'll never see the likes of the Cremona makers again...ever...despite the best of intentions and the most optimistic of wishful thinking. We'll never see anything remotely comparable, short of someone diligently trying to reproduce such instruments in the smallest and most arcane detail.

I suspect few if any of the 'brave new worlders' here, really and truly regret it.

But surely the ignominy of those great distilleries is of universal concern. ??

It's all part of the same mind-set, people.
[/CITAR]

It is an excellent reflection.
Three years ago I stopped making custom shoes to dedicate myself to making musical instruments and ...... effectively as you said "We'll never see the likes of the Cremona makers again ... ever ... despite the best of intentions and the most optimistic of wishful thinking. We'll never see anything remotely comparable, short of someone diligently trying to reproduce such instruments in the smallest and most arcane detail.
I am not Amati, nor stradivarius nor Guarneri I am only Manuel, but I enjoy as a child, I do not use anything mechanical and I love it, if I have to do some lasts I do not care, I do not regret having stopped making shoes.

I still have a lot of heavy machinery, I wanted to set up a factory but finally decided not to ... ... heck !! I am only Manuel an artisan not a manufacturer! and I will die being an artisan even if I am the last.

Some pictures......all in process.....

Part of the machines, I have put them all up for sale..... the rest I have in another ship.

 

[ryanluo23]

St Crispin's peeps

Does anyone have any more photos of the 'NAT' leather (see link)... Im thinking of using this for a 620JR boot...

I'm guessing it will also be available in 608 and 607 colourway?

Chukka boots, curved topline - Milk chocolate crust calf - Saint Crispin's

www.saintcrispins.com

 

[tdes81]

St Crispin's peeps

Does anyone have any more photos of the 'NAT' leather (see link)... Im thinking of using this for a 620JR boot...

I'm guessing it will also be available in 608 and 607 colourway?

Chukka boots, curved topline - Milk chocolate crust calf - Saint Crispin's

www.saintcrispins.com

I mean you can do any St. C makeup made to order with whatever leather you want. So any colorway really.

I haven't seen the NAT leather before, and it's also not in their uppers options. So not quite sure about that.

 

[Encore]

Most of my saint crispins are my “go to shoes” when I decided to have a bit of walking, I hope to add these boys to the list

 

[sforum1]

Most of my saint crispins are my “go to shoes” when I decided to have a bit of walking, I hope to add these boys to the list
View attachment 1406527 View attachment 1406528

I use Nike for that purpose. But, yes, these nad boys look better.

 

[Encore]

After quite some waiting, I finally received my Made-to-Measure Monk!
Mod 630, CRU leather, Color 5972, made on modified Classic last.

I met with Phillip and Steven (Leffot) in the Toronto trunk show. I have flat feet with low instep, and I went for the "Modified Last + Test shoes" route. The first Test shoes didn't come out as ideal, after communicating with Phillip and Steven, they made me a free second trial. This final pair fit really well, I think the fit can be improved but I am satisfied with what it is now (as first pair).

For some reason I am getting everything in green/ dark green last year and this year, but I honestly think this dark green is the amazing. I think it will be easy to pair with.

Big thanks to Phillip and Steven