Simple but high-end suit: RTW, MTM, Bespoke?

[jonathanS]

Dude, this is the most ridiculous question I've ever heard of - no offense, but this is quite literally like which chick is hottest? an 8, an 8, or a 10.

If you have the means, patience, and tailor in your area, bespoke is the obvious choice - true bespoke.

That said, the 10 isn't available in SF, so you gotta decide on an 8. If it was me, I'd go to wilkes, which is having a sale right now, get something off the peg, get it altered, be done with it. Sometimes, good enough is good enough - yes, its not bespoke, and bespoke is better, but if the 10 is a long distance relationship which no prospect, you gotta pick the best available.

If you want to spend a boatload more, MTM at wilkes can't be bad. MTM at department stores isn't going to be cheap, but thats the nature of the game. MTM Isaia or off the peg Kiton is a tough call - ill give you that. I suppose you should go with the one that fits better which would be Isaia, but damn, some of those kiton fabrics are just pure money.

 

[jonathanS]

I think bespoke is worth it if:

1) You like the convenience of being able to order almost anything you want.
2) You want a fit or silhouette not available to you off-the-rack (and likewise, if you're enamored with a certain tailor's cut)
3) You like the service that comes with bespoke (e.g. not having to pay attention to fit, being able to get things changed throughout the life of the garment, getting advice on things, etc).
4) Craft for the sake of craft is important to you.
5) You're really nit picky about certain things, such as balance issues, which may be difficult to address via MTM depending on what's available to you (although lots of MTM companies can address this).
6) Money is relatively less of an issue for you.

The stuff above about how bespoke is always better, or that "bespoke has a better level of detail," or mumbo jumbo about the romance of handwork is all nonsense. There's a lot of good RTW out there, and if you find something that fits well and looks good on you, I don't see why it should be discounted just because it wasn't made to your specific body measurements. Frankly, so many tailors today use block patterns anyway, even on Savile Row.

I use bespoke tailors because I like the craft of it. I also like the silhouette I can get through certain tailors. And appreciate being able to change really small things here and there, essentially getting whatever I want.

But if someone wanted a soft Italian style jacket, and they lived in San Francisco, they'd be better off with a ready-to-wear Sartoria Formosa piece from No Man Walks Alone. Mainly because there aren't really any options here. Which is why I think you start first with thinking about silhouette and then move from there.

Formosa with NMWA is a good call.

 

[dieworkwear]

Formosa with NMWA is a good call.

It only is if you like that silhouette.

 

[jonathanS]

It only is if you like that silhouette.

Sure, but I'm speaking in terms answering the question about which is better, & we can't argue about taste in terms of style preferences - that is what it is. I suppose the short answer could be "whichever style you prefer." But thats a personal question everyone must answer & I trust OP's ability to evaluate that on his own. Im speaking from a quality perspective, which is better.

 

[Andy57]

I wear only RTW, but with the strategy of trying on enormous numbers of different things until I run into something that fits perfectly.

Several times I was thinking seriously about trying out MTM or bespoke, but each time, after doing a lot of research, I was dissuaded from it. The reason is that this whole business seems to me, frankly speaking, very murky and risky. On the internet, one can find a lot of blogs and forums (including this one) where people write about their experiences with custom tailoring, and it's not infrequent that the final product is disappointing (or downright terrible) despite the enormous cost, even with tailors and outlets that are supposed to be very high-end.

My conclusion is that there are only two ways in which custom tailoring can make sense.

The first is if you build a long-standing relationship with a tailor, who then after a while figures out how to reliably turn out things that fit you perfectly. However, this will probably require throwing money on several initial projects whose results will be less than stellar, and you also need to be lucky to run into a tailor who will eventually be able to converge to a cut and style that works great for you. (Of course, you may be lucky and get a great result immediately. But you may also, and I would guess more likely, run into a tailor who will never be able to achieve a great result for you.)

The second is if you enjoy spending huge sums of money on experimenting, and commission lots of things with different tailors, hoping for occasional brilliant outcomes rather than consistent success. This would be the custom tailoring equivalent of my strategy for RTW. Of course, the difference is that trying out RTW costs nothing except wasted time, while with custom tailoring the cost will be exorbitant.

The bottom line is, if you're not experienced with custom tailoring, I don't think it's a sensible strategy to go for a bespoke or MTM suit expecting to get a result superior to what you'd get with RTW. You might get lucky and achieve that, but there is also a significantly higher chance that the result will be very disappointing.

(One caveat is that I am lucky to be of fairly average size, so most RTW items will have a size that fits me tolerably well, and it's not uncommon that I run into things whose fit is excellent even without any alterations. If your size is unusual, it might be much more difficult, which would make it more worthwhile to try to figure out a custom tailoring option that works for you.)

This is almost entirely nonsense.

 

[Vuchko]

This is almost entirely nonsense.

Would you care to explain how?

 

[dieworkwear]

Sure, but I'm speaking in terms answering the question about which is better, & we can't argue about taste in terms of style preferences - that is what it is. I suppose the short answer could be "whichever style you prefer." But thats a personal question everyone must answer & I trust OP's ability to evaluate that on his own. Im speaking from a quality perspective, which is better.

I think we've discussed this in another thread, but quality to me only means something insofar that it manifests itself in some tangible way for how a garment looks. Which is again why I think guys are better of thinking more about how a jacket looks on them, rather than mumbo jumbo in a marketing pamphlet about handstitching and Super 100 wools. Those may mean something for how a garments looks on you, but you could also just pay attention to that end result, rather than thinking about quality in such abstracted terms.

If you haven't worn tailored jackets for a while, it can be hard to tell what sort of silhouette you want. Or how to even read them. That can be a problem, but you'd be better of training your eye for such things, rather than trying to tell if something is vaguely well made. Quality shouldn't be abstracted from how a jacket looks on you. When it is, it's all too often obscuring practical considerations, rather than helping you think through them. Guys will buy a Kiton jacket that looks crappy on them just because it has pick stitching on the lapel or whatever.

 

[Andy57]

Would you care to explain how?

No, not really. If you actually believe what you wrote to be sound advice then we have no areas of overlap in what we believe. I'm happy for you that RTW works for you. As for me, I have minimal interest in wearing what someone else thinks I ought to be wearing.

 

[jonathanS]

I think we've discussed this in another thread, but quality to me only means something insofar that it manifests itself in some tangible way for how a garment looks. Which is again why I think guys are better of thinking more about how a jacket looks on them, rather than mumbo jumbo in a marketing pamphlet about handstitching and Super 100 wools. Those may mean something for how a garments looks on you, but you could also just pay attention to that end result, rather than thinking about quality in such abstracted terms.

If you haven't worn tailored jackets for a while, it can be hard to tell what sort of silhouette you want. Or how to even read them. That can be a problem, but you'd be better of training your eye for such things, rather than trying to tell if something is vaguely well made. Quality shouldn't be abstracted from how a jacket looks on you. When it is, it's all too often obscuring practical considerations, rather than helping you think through them. Guys will buy a Kiton jacket that looks crappy on them just because it has pick stitching on the lapel or whatever.

Have you ever felt the cloth of a kiton? Its not the pick stitching, which you can get on a suit at macys, btw. We have discussed this, & I contend that the quality of the fabric, canvassing, handwork, attention to detail all impact the way the cloth looks on an individual.

I mean, its like saying the difference between a crockett & jones bench grade & gaziano & girling isn't important - sure the leather is better, and the finishings are better, you have a channeled sole, but, at the end of the day, the C&J will also look good. I mean, I understand that sentiment, but I still prefer my G&Gs. Somehow, I think we'd disagree on this too.

You like to create a straw man, and tear it down - this contention that somehow, just because a suit is of quality materials and detail means it won't fit someone is, frankly, incorrect & a false choice. Why not just have both, and these are general questions without seeing a photo of the OP, so you're trying to answer a question neither of us have enough knowledge to answer.

 

[dieworkwear]

Have you ever felt the cloth of a kiton? Its not the pick stitching, which you can get on a suit at macys, btw. We have discussed this, & I contend that the quality of the fabric, canvassing, handwork, attention to detail all impact the way the cloth looks on an individual.

I mean, its like saying the difference between a crockett & jones bench grade & gaziano & girling isn't important - sure the leather is better, and the finishings are better, you have a channeled sole, but, at the end of the day, the C&J will also look good. I mean, I understand that sentiment, but I still prefer my G&Gs. Somehow, I think we'd disagree on this too.

You like to create a straw man, and tear it down - this contention that somehow, just because a suit is of quality materials and detail means it won't fit someone is, frankly, incorrect & a false choice. Why not just have both, and these are general questions without seeing a photo of the OP, so you're trying to answer a question neither of us have enough knowledge to answer.

Yes, I've tried on Kiton jackets. They're not the kind of jackets I care for, but I can see why some people like them.

For C&J vs G&G, I think someone should choose a shoe based on which fits them best and what they think looks best. TBH, I generally prefer the look of C&J over G&G, which is why I buy C&J.

You're right, we don't have a photo of the OP. But when he asks if he should get if he wants the highest quality suit, I think that's meaningless without first thinking about what kind of style or silhouette he wants. Thinking about this in terms of quality is going about it from the wrong direction, IMO.

 

[UrbanComposition]

Andy and Derek together have plenty of experience of OTR, MTM, and bespoke, on various tiers of expense. RTW and MTM will never fit the same as bespoke, but as @dieworkwear mentioned, if you wish to go bespoke, you first should decide with tailor's silhouette and style you see yourself in, and move from there. Otherwise, if fit is secondary to you, choose what OTR suit you like yourself in and tailor it.

 

[dieworkwear]

Andy and Derek together have plenty of experience of OTR, MTM, and bespoke, on various tiers of expense. RTW and MTM will never fit the same as bespoke, but as @dieworkwear mentioned, if you wish to go bespoke, you first should decide with tailor's silhouette and style you see yourself in, and move from there. Otherwise, if fit is secondary to you, choose what OTR suit you like yourself in and tailor it.

Is that really true though? I think it's true for RTW vs bespoke, if for nothing else besides balance issues (left right balance, etc). But with good MTM vs good bespoke, if we're just talking about fit, is there really a difference?

I'm separating fit here from silhouette. So, sleeve pitch, collar on the neck, balance, sleeve length, etc. Stuff like the lapel shape (belly, width, etc) and shoulders (shaping, cut, etc) I chalk up to silhouette.

Granted, there's a loooottttt of bad MTM out there. But there's also a ton of bad bespoke.

The main difference I've seen is that the best of bespoke often looks better in terms of silhouette, where I've rarely been blown away by MTM. But that seems to depend on what kind of silhouette you want (and what might be available to a customer).

 

[Vuchko]

No, not really. If you actually believe what you wrote to be sound advice then we have no areas of overlap in what we believe.

Honestly, I am interested in learning rather than adversarial debate, and looking at the links in your signature, I wouldn't dispute that you are much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. So when I ask why you think I'm so badly wrong, it's an honest request for your opinion, not picking an argument.

I would in fact greatly like to build a custom tailored wardrobe in the future, and I have ideas for several garments I would highly desire for which I can't find anything similar in RTW. The trouble is, after extensive research on what might be good options to try out, both online and in real life, I was left with the conclusion that getting good results with tailoring is very difficult and risky. (In my experience, even just getting basic RTW alterations done consistently well is hard enough.)

If you have any advice as to why my impression might be wrong, or how these difficulties might be overcome, I would be very grateful to read it. But surely you also wouldn't consider it reasonable if someone inexperienced just went ahead and commissioned a custom suit expecting to get a great result with certainty?

 

[dieworkwear]

The trouble is, after extensive research on what might be good options to try out, both online and in real life, I was left with the conclusion that getting good results with tailoring is very difficult and risky.

It can be if you choose a bad tailor. If you choose a good tailor, the process is easier than anything in RTW. You choose a fabric, stand naturally, and then take out your credit card. Come back a couple more times to stand still, and then you have your garment. If you need changes, the tailor should be able to change things for you. I buy bespoke largely because of the convenience.

It's hard to get good information about tailors, however. A lot of what's published online isn't that reliable, frankly, for a variety of reasons. People are more likely to say good things about a tailor, rather than bad (and not just because they're getting free products or whatever). Forums aren't that much better. Your best bet is to privately speak with the clients of a tailor you're interested in, and get their honest off-the-record thoughts. Hopefully someone who has had experience with other tailors and isn't just enthusiastic about the one new suit they got.

Even then, that's not a guarantee. I think your point earlier about how it can be expensive is fair. On some level, the only way you'll know if you'll like a tailor is to try him or her. Other people's experiences can give you an idea, but they'll never be a perfect measure.

 

[UrbanComposition]

@dieworkwear Sorry, I meant good bespoke. It's true there is plenty of bad bespoke, but if taking the best of all three, I've had the best fit with bespoke. Even the bad bespoke I have, fits better than good RTW. That said, I've had decent fitting RTW that looks better on me, sooooooo