Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[ntempleman]

That double monk looks like it was originally an upper for a different, wider a last, pressed into new service

 

[DWFII]

For the height of quarters on lace ups, would it be ideal to have it as close to the ankle malleolus as possible? but not too close as Jesper pointed out, can lead to painful experiences. Or else why don’t makers just cut the quarters as low as they are loafers, as it would never be a problem?

I've never thought about this in any great measure before despite having some slight issues with my own ankle bones and at least one customer with definite issues.

But off the top of my head I would note that part of the function of a shoe is to support the foot. This means laterally as much as anything--to prevent the foot from 'walking over.' That's why 'better' shoes have a heel stiffener that extends further forward than commercial shoes and why better shoes also incorporate 'mid-liners' which effectively extend the stiffener from heel to toe.

Of course, the heel stiffener has to be high enough on the foot to control the calcaneus and that more or less sets the minimum height for the quarters.

The facings need to be at a certain minimum height on the foot, as well in, order to hold the foot down and back into the heel. Theoretically, (ideally, IMO) within a rough inch (depending on the size of the foot) of the front of the ankle. [roughly where the instep / talus meets the lower leg / tibia]

Everything else--the topline, specifically-- is designed to aesthetically blend the facings into the counter / backpart of the shoe.

It's perhaps worth noting in this context, as well, that loafers don't really provide much support for the foot and will walk-over and break down structurally almost as soon as they are worn.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

That double monk looks like it was originally an upper for a different, wider a last, pressed into new service

Yeah could definitely be the case, looking at all parts of the pattern. Got to save money everywhere you can ?

I was always surprised that not only didn’t Simon mention anything about it in his original post about those shoes, he decides to highlight them again and not talk about it at all there either. I mean, even if he might not be a “shoe expert” (based on how he writes about shoes in many cases), one thought he would catch this as something not properly made.

 

[wurger]

Yeah could definitely be the case, looking at all parts of the pattern. Got to save money everywhere you can ?

I was always surprised that not only didn’t Simon mention anything about it in his original post about those shoes, he decides to highlight them again and not talk about it at all there either. I mean, even if he might not be a “shoe expert” (based on how he writes about shoes in many cases), one thought he would catch this as something not properly made.

did he get the pair for free? Definitely shoes ain’t his forte, his Vass shoes and its review was a joke.

 

[daizawaguy]

Its something he treads on lightly (our intended) - how much does he really pay, and what can he really say...but yeah, those double monks should have been sent right back. You will note the front bucket only has one hole, and the rear buckle has had two holes made - and the leather in the front is bulging - fit issues there, as well as pain at the end of the day, that he seems to dismiss as par for the course in his article on that shoe. Another reason to stick clear of GC!? The incredible thing is that surely GC would have picked that up and known photos would be all over the internet.....Mmmmm

 

[Sinbios]

Does anyone know if there's a specific term for when the stitches joining the seams on the uppers are hidden? Is it a French stitch or ladder stitch or somesuch?

Examples:

https://www.santonishoes.com/us/leather-lace-ups-2013143.html

No. 5225 - Brandy

The Goodyear-welted classic among men’s shoes – the cap-toe Oxford. This lush brandy model features vegetable-tanned soft calf leather and a hand finish.

www.shoepassion.com

Segovia

From the Línea Flex Collection, the Segovia is a classic cap toe Oxford that features supple calfskin and our Línea Flex construction. Línea Flex blends classic Bologna construction with additional features for increased flexibility. With movement similar to a deconstructed shoe, Línea Flex...

www.magnanni.com

Searching around there's lots of discussion about sole stitches, but very little about upper stitches. Are there any connotations to shoes with this style of seams on the upper, e.g. with regard to durability, formality, etc.? It doesn't seem very common, are there any downside or do people just mostly prefer the look of visible stitches on the upper?

 

[ntempleman]

Usually call it a bagged seam here, you could describe it as a turned in or folded under seam also.

There’s no real benefit or disadvantage, it just looks a bit cheap. Like the shoes are glued together. I guess you can hide sloppy machining easily when the stitches are hidden underneath.

the one time a bagged seam is useful is on the top line of ladies dress shoes, no stitches to potentially rub against stockings

 

[bengal-stripe]

Does anyone know if there's a specific term for when the stitches joining the seams on the uppers are hidden? Is it a French stitch or ladder stitch or somesuch.

As you said it's rather rare (never seen an English shoe using this technique) and I cannot think of a term in general use; probably 'hidden seam is as good as any.

The seam itself is the very same sewing machine 'lock stitch', but the leather is placed differently while under the machine. Place the pieces that you want to join, like a toe cap, grain to grain. So the cap placed onto the vamp shows the underside and points into the 'wrong' direction. Stitch. Then fold the cap over the seam, it will show the grain and will point in the right direction.

 

[Luigi_M]

I post here because this seems the right place to put my question.

I like to work on my shoes' heels, to make them nice and glossy.
In this I am taking shameless advantage of the advice @DWFII gave on this and other threads, of the book "" by R.A. Salaman he mentioned, and of the books he took the chore to transcript and publish on his site thehcc.org .
Recently I treated myself to a heel iron i found on ebay, which has a flatter top compared to the rounder one of other irons I already have

I'm thinking to sand the head, to get rid of some small dents and have it perfectly smooth.
Anyway, I'm unable to understand the purpose of the notch you can see on the left side of the head.
Can the expert cordwainers explain?
Thank you.

 

[DWFII]

I post here because this seems the right place to put my question.

I like to work on my shoes' heels, to make them nice and glossy.
In this I am taking shameless advantage of the advice @DWFII gave on this and other threads, of the book "" by R.A. Salaman he mentioned, and of the books he took the chore to transcript and publish on his site thehcc.org .
Recently I treated myself to a heel iron i found on ebay, which has a flatter top compared to the rounder one of other irons I already have

I'm thinking to sand the head, to get rid of some small dents and have it perfectly smooth.
Anyway, I'm unable to understand the purpose of the notch you can see on the left side of the head.
Can the expert cordwainers explain?
Thank you.

I don't really and truly know. I have heard varying explanations but I suspect that it is either just a convenient surface with a built-in guide and/or that each shoemaker more or less finds his own use for it...or not--my favourite 'heel' iron has no step.

Salaman would be my first choice for an explanation, as well, but despite all the old shoemakers that he interviewed to write the book, as with the corrugated heel iron, I suspect no one really knows the rationale for it--it has been lost in time.

It would be interesting (to me) to hear different takes---they are all stories and worth collecting.

 

[Luigi_M]

@DWFII , thank you so much for your sincere answer.
I asked because in Salaman's book several examples of heel iron are shown, with and without step, but even there I could not find an explanation.
Anyway it is a true gold mine of informations even for the amateur.

 

[DWFII]

@DWFII , thank you so much for your sincere answer.
I asked because in Salaman's book several examples of heel iron are shown, with and without step, but even there I could not find an explanation.
Anyway it is a true gold mine of informations even for the amateur.

Yes, it is.

 

[skeen7908]

Hello all, not sure where else might be more appropriate to post this problem I have not encountered elsewhere

This pair of boots has the back of it heel lifted off the ground when left unworn

by pushing the heel flat to the ground with my the entire front of the shoe is lifted 1-2cm off the ground

I’ve not encountered this before

is it a defect in the lasting process ?
or something that occasionally happens with stiff double leather soles?

and can it be expected to flatten out with some wear ? (The shoes are unworn)

Would appreciate the technical insight and some advice as to how fatal this flaw is

 

[DWFII]

I suspect that these are factory made...where much is ignored or can go wrong. Where third-party components, such as heel stacks, are added as a unit and as part of a set mechanical process, and little or no attempt to actually balance the shoe is made.

That said, I have seen this kind of thing on even well made shoes but never that extreme. Yes, sometimes a double sole can exacerbate the problem. Will it flatten out? I would hope so. I do not know if it will bother your feet or not. If the shoe seems awkward and 'clomps' when you wear it, or if it alters your natural gait, it may take a long time to break in or flatten.

Manufactured shoe, in general, often fly in the face of 'best practices' if only because the machines that do the work have a limited 'stroke' and are not aware when a problem arises. And if, to compound the problem, management and/or quality control are not knowledgeable or skilled shoemakers, who is there to gainsay it?

 

[bengal-stripe]

and can it be expected to flatten out with some wear ? (The shoes are unworn)

Unworn the boots might be, but are they of current production?

I have a feeling they might be 'new-old-stock', shoes that have been produced maybe 30 years ago and they have spent the whole time without shoe trees in a shoe box forgotten in some warehouse or store room. Once you have removed the last from a newly-made pair of shoes, the periphery of the shoe has a natural tendency to move upwards like a slice of dry toast. You counteract that with a pair of well-fitting shoe trees. Worn shoe without trees will acquire that toast-shape pretty quickly; unworn shoes will as well, just much, much slower. 30 years in a box in some dry environment can do that to any pair, whether they are hand- or machine-made.

Get a good-fitting pair of trees (preferably not the hinged variety) and get them into the boots immediately after wear when they are still worm and moist. At least they should ease the problem if they can't remove it totally.

But be aware, it's likely to take a long(ish) time.