Santoni vs Sutor

[blnee]

I am glad that everyone is happy with their shoe choices. I would expect nothing less from any informed consumer. Can any light be shed on what options are available to be ordered; what models are currently available for order; and most importantly the most effective way to execute an order from the middle of nowhere?

I have to special order shoes for the size alone so it makes just as much sense to get what I want from this.

 

[Roger]

I can't really add a lot to this discussion, although I do have shoes by both makers. I have the top-line Mantellassis, which are superb in every respect, along with the mid-line Mantellassis (also very good) and a pair of mid-line Santonis, which are alright, although not, I think, quite as well-made as my corresponding Mantellassis. For example on the Santonis, after several years' use, the uppers are pulling away on one side of the shoe from the storm welt--something I wouldn't have thought possible, but there you are. They are not leaking, but when I take a step, the separation is visible.

However, I doubt that there are many forumers who know more about Italian shoes than Iammatt--guys who have actually been to Italy, bought many different brands of shoes there, talked to Italian cordwainers, compared the many different Italian brands, etc., as he has. For this reason, I would give considerably more weight to his comments than to those of others who have far less actual field experience with the subject, and are perhaps responding from feelings of brand loyalty.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Thanks Roger. However, they are still just my opinions and include my own lens for viewing the information I have picked up. As I have said before about other subjects re Europe, the best info I have seen comes from T4Phage. perhaps he will chime in.

Perhaps the best way I can describe the difference is that while I may not like all Sutor shoes (especially the ones recently shown with the funky ridge) my experience and everything that I have heard have led me to the conclusion that they make an extremely honest product. That is to say that they are true to their basic principles, deliver high quality, price fairly and don't try to portray themselves as something that they are not. I do not have the same impression of Santoni.

 

[teddieriley]

Fair enough. I respect IanMatt's opinions as I've read many of his posts since my time finding SF. If he's of the opinion they make a shoe even better than Santoni, I would take that into consideration if I had a similar choice. I would agree that the lower/mid-line classics range Santoni's don't feel very substantial, and do not warrant a $500 price point. $200 perhaps. Considering I already have FAMs, maybe I should try some Sutors next. I know Lance has offered them in the past, and a few are on STP, beside from E-bay, are there any other sources of discounted Sutors? Who typically carries them retail?

 

[Soph]

As a side note it would appear that:

From my recent discussions with korshack and Sutor's new US representative in NewYork; Sutor has been sold to another company. The details of which and how it may or may not effect Sutor's style / quality is unknown. Perhaps someone has more detail on this.

Holding Italian Luxury HLI now owns Sutor.

 

[chobochobo]

No offense, but do we really need a 'my shoe is better than your shoe' sort of thread

It reminds me of the Sega vs Nintendo vs Sony Playstation arguments that I used to hear when I was into that sort of thing.

 

[Soph]

http://www.shermanbrothers.com/produ...&ProductId=897

I like the design of this Santoni. I used to own it before going higher end Vass/etc. If they would make it to higher end FAM specs I would love it. A greatshoe for a budget.

 

[Roger]

Originally Posted by chobochobo

No offense, but do we really need a 'my shoe is better than your shoe' sort of thread

It reminds me of the Sega vs Nintendo vs Sony Playstation arguments that I used to hear when I was into that sort of thing.
No offense, but if there were evidence that Brand X is actually superior to Brand Y, and this has until now been unknown to SFers who believe them to be equivalent, wouldn't you want to hear about this?

 

[sho'nuff]

Originally Posted by Roger

I can't really add a lot to this discussion, although I do have shoes by both makers. I have the top-line Mantellassis, which are superb in every respect, along with the mid-line Mantellassis (also very good) and a pair of mid-line Santonis, which are alright, although not, I think, quite as well-made as my corresponding Mantellassis. For example on the Santonis, after several years' use, the uppers are pulling away on one side of the shoe from the storm welt--something I wouldn't have thought possible, but there you are. They are not leaking, but when I take a step, the separation is visible.

However, I doubt that there are many forumers who know more about Italian shoes than Iammatt--guys who have actually been to Italy, bought many different brands of shoes there, talked to Italian cordwainers, compared the many different Italian brands, etc., as he has. For this reason, I would give considerably more weight to his comments than to those of others who have far less actual field experience with the subject, and are perhaps responding from feelings of brand loyalty.

you may be correct and iammatt may be an authoritative source for shoe info. but what i am saying is, all these shoes above mid-level are SUPERLATIVE, the high ends you can debate who is better or such in many regards: construction, antique, clicking, heck even the type of waxed thread used in the welt.

but they are all in the same ballpark, the high ends you have the cubs, the yankees, the dodgers, all professional ball, i have my team you have yours for various reasons. but they are all major grade.
midline santoni will fall double A or something like that.

 

[chobochobo]

Originally Posted by Roger

No offense, but if there were evidence that Brand X is actually superior to Brand Y, and this has until now been unknown to SFers who believe them to be equivalent, wouldn't you want to hear about this?

Absolutely, as long as you can truly define 'superior' and account for subjectivity of aesthetics, comfort etc...

 

[ltontheqt]

After reading this debate, I am interested in hearing more from Matt on who he thinks, other than Sutor, makes a fine Italian shoe worth the coin. It would be great for people in different demographics to know what's available not only in the higher-end but also in the mid-range.

 

[Britalian]

Originally Posted by blnee

I am glad that everyone is happy with their shoe choices. I would expect nothing less from any informed consumer. Can any light be shed on what options are available to be ordered; what models are currently available for order; and most importantly the most effective way to execute an order from the middle of nowhere?

I have to special order shoes for the size alone so it makes just as much sense to get what I want from this.


I have a solution:
If you credit my paypal with 700euros I'll nip down to Florence to purchase them for you, and I'll even break 'em in for a month or so at no extra cost.

+1 on Sutor over Santoni (although still a nice shoe can be had)

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I certainly like Sutor much more. I feel that the Sutor shoes in all ranges are done very well, are often quite trditional, albeint in an Italian way and mine have always been estremely comfortable. Also, they seem to be a company that has always stayed true to what they are, and has a consistent style and quality throughout their line.

I cannot think of a line of shoes that I like less than Santoni. Every pair I have seen has been inelegant and clunky or pointy and pimpy. Furthermore, the prices they charge for the top of their range are outrageous for the quality which they deliver. They seem to be shoes that aspire to be Lattanzi at 2/3 of the price and 10% of the quality of workmanship. The lower lines strike me as simply ugly and the mid range as pimpy.

I would go with Sutor any day.

I agree with every word of this. Indeed I would - and do - take Sutor any day. With all the hoo haa about Santoni FAMs and repeated appearances on shoe Appreciation threads I thought I was the only one who felt them to be quite frightfully distateful. I can find only about one out of 20 styles which I consider wearable. However, there are other many far better offerings around at that price range.

 

[gdl203]

I'm convinced it comes down to aesthetics and whether or not one likes the design of the Santoni shoes. Some people seem to have a strong reaction to some of their designs and therefore completely write off the brand as a whole. To some degree I can understand - if someone told me that David Eden makes the best constructed shoes in the world, I would still violently hate them... However, it's not helpful to believe that there is any sort of objectivity in a definite statement that says that a SM shoe is far better made than a Santoni FAM.

I have shoes from I believe every single maker we discuss on this forum, including several SM (handmade line and mid-level line) and several Santoni FAM. I walk in these shoes, I polish them, I see them age and I believe I can offer my little piece of experience. There is no reason to say that one is better made than the other.

In particular, the comment about the leather quality of the upper is certainly backwards in my experience - if there is anything that could be improved by SM IMO, it's really that. I find as many designs I dislike made by each of the makers. It's pretty obvious to me that most of the choices outlined by Iammatt (such as the widely spaced stitching) are very much design choices, whether one like it or not. It is typical Santoni aesthetics.

In any case, I wanted to put my little weight on the other side of the scale to balance it a little more.... IMO, there is no real difference in quality, unless one is afraid of thinner leather which creases quickly in which case I would recommend to stay away from SM - I personally don't mind that and actually like it on some shoes.

PS: I also have been to Italy many many many times (which apparently lends credibility so here you go

)....

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by gdl203

In particular, the comment about the leather quality of the upper is certainly backwards in my experience - if there is anything that could be improved by SM IMO, it's really that. I find as many designs I dislike made by each of the makers. It's pretty obvious to me that most of the choices outlined by Iammatt (such as the widely spaced stitching) are very much design choices, whether one like it or not. It is typical Santoni aesthetics.


I agree with everything but this. I suppose you could say that wide spaced stitching is a Santoni design choice, but the fact is that narrow stitching is good shoemaking. This goes double for something like a norvegese where you are actually waterproofing the shoe.