OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread

[scurvyfreedman]



Doesn't Stannis' claim of right just derive from the fact that his brother had the ability to seize the throne?

The ability to seize the throne is nothing. Robert was King. That's why he has the claim of right. He's the rightful heir to his dead brother who was King. That's how primogeniture and inheritance rights works in the Seven Kingdoms, except Dorne, which provides for inheritance to oldest regardless of sex, so women can inherit.

Robert was the rightful King because he deposed the sitting dynasty and all of the Lords Paramount swore fealty to him. Starks, Arryns, and Tullys who joined in his rebellion made four Lords Paramount. The Lannisters joined him by sacking KL and slew the royal family except for Crown Prince Rhaegar who Robert killed in combat. The Greyjoys stayed out of the war for the most part and then rebelled and were put down by Robert and his allies. The Tyrells were loyalists and joined the King's Peace later. The Martells were last to join the King's Peace as Rhaegar's wife was Princess Elia of Dorne. They were subdued when Ned rode to the Tower of Joy and engaged in something with the Daynes, the second most prominent family in Dorne.

 

[scurvyfreedman]



Dude, Trade Vic is one of my favorite characters. Ass. Kicker.

Also:

Spoiler

you gotta figure that the dragon horn has some relevance and thus the Iron Islands story needs to be developed somewhat

And a complete simpleton.

 

[lawyerdad]



The ability to seize the throne is nothing. Robert was King. That's why he has the claim of right. He's the rightful heir to his dead brother who was King. That's how primogeniture and inheritance rights works in the Seven Kingdoms, except Dorne, which provides for inheritance to oldest regardless of sex, so women can inherit.

Robert was the rightful King because he deposed the sitting dynasty and all of the Lords Paramount swore fealty to him. Starks, Arryns, and Tullys who joined in his rebellion made four Lords Paramount. The Lannisters joined him by sacking KL and slew the royal family except for Crown Prince Rhaegar who Robert killed in combat. The Greyjoys stayed out of the war for the most part and then rebelled and were put down by Robert and his allies. The Tyrells were loyalists and joined the King's Peace later. The Martells were last to join the King's Peace as Rhaegar's wife was Princess Elia of Dorne. They were subdued when Ned rode to the Tower of Joy and engaged in something with the Daynes, the second most prominent family in Dorne.

1. Just to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying (I think so, but the pronoun placement makes it a bit confusing): "He" in your first paragraph is Stannis, not Robert, yes?
2. Wut? Maybe I misunderstand you, but isn't there a fair bit of tension between the first sentence of your second paragraph and the first sentence of the first paragraph?

Anyway, less lawyerly semantics and moar drunk dwarfs!!

 

[scurvyfreedman]



1. Just to make sure I'm clear on what you're saying (I think so, but the pronoun placement makes it a bit confusing): "He" in your first paragraph is Stannis, not Robert, yes?
2. Wut? Maybe I misunderstand you, but isn't there a fair bit of tension between the first sentence of your second paragraph and the first sentence of the first paragraph?

Anyway, less lawyerly semantics and moar drunk dwarfs!!

Yes, the first he is Stannis.

But, the second piece is that the Robert probably couldn't have held the throne against the Lannisters. Tywin always had the largest host and the ability to "seize the throne." But, Robert was King even though Twyin could have seized the throne. Tywin could have preserved the throne for Aerys too. But, Aerys had mocked him when he suggested Cersei marry Rhaegar. So, Tywin stayed out of the conflict when Robert first rose against the crown. Tywin was also the richest and had as good a claim as any once Aerys was dispatched. It was called Robert's Rebellion only because he was the new king. But, it was truly an Arryn rebellion.

Jon Arryn and his wards. Hoster Tully joined b/c the Starks were now linked to the Tullys through Ned honoring his brother's engagement. Jon Arryn could have been King. Ned could have been King. If Jon Arryn hadn't incited Robert and Ned there's no way there would have been a rebellion in the first place. Ned would have accepted the King's death sentence for his brother and father. Robert might have gripped, but he didn't go to KL to retrieve his fiancee like Brandon Stark to retrieve his sister. He wasn't that rash.

Yes, Robert was crowned but he wasn't the one who seized the throne. He was essentially selected by the others who worked together to overthrow the Mad King. And, in retrospect, the Targaryen blood in the Baratheon line was used as support, but not the reason.

 

[JustChris]

I don't get the love for Stannis. Yeah, he may have the best claim, but he'd be a crap king and he's not much of a leader. The Night's Watch blacksmith, Donal Noye (sadly, not a TV character) assessed the Baratheon brothers best- Robert was the true steel; the alloy of strength and flexibility. The military and political chops in one. Renly was copper; shiny and pretty, but soft and of little use in the end (unless we're talking about Loras, in which case he was definitely hard in the end). Stannis is iron; hard but brittle and he'll break before he ever bends. That lack of flexibility and unwillingness to ever compromise or concede in the slightest is why he's unloved and ignored. Deservedly so, in my opinion. If Davos wasn't around to call him an asshole and tell him to act like a reasonable adult occasionally, he'd be even less of a factor than he is currently.

 

[Piobaire]



I don't get the love for Stannis. Yeah, he may have the best claim, but he'd be a crap king and he's not much of a leader. The Night's Watch blacksmith, Donal Noye (sadly, not a TV character) assessed the Baratheon brothers best- Robert was the true steel; the alloy of strength and flexibility. The military and political chops in one. Renly was copper; shiny and pretty, but soft and of little use in the end (unless we're talking about Loras, in which case he was definitely hard in the end). Stannis is iron; hard but brittle and he'll break before he ever bends. That lack of flexibility and unwillingness to ever compromise or concede in the slightest is why he's unloved and ignored. Deservedly so, in my opinion. If Davos wasn't around to call him an asshole and tell him to act like a reasonable adult occasionally, he'd be even less of a factor than he is currently.

Pointing out Stannis has the best claim to the throne =! love. I think most everyone realizes he would make a hard to live with king.

Btw, Robert might have been steel but he sure had a thick coating of copper as he tarnished pretty badly.

 

[in stitches]

Stannis is a doosher. #realtalk

 

[scurvyfreedman]

I respect Stannis more than any of the other claimants. Renly was a douche to try to step around his older brother. Joffrey isn't exactly the monster portrayed on the show, but he's not far behind given what he did to Sansa and others. Didn't he torture animals too? Balon is just annoying. I can't stand the Iron Born chapters on Pyke. And, Robb is an idiot. Sure, be King in the North. But, once you leave the King's Peace stay in the North. Why do all that damage. Your father isn't coming back. The Crown is not trying to march up the Neck. Once Stannis attacks KL you might as well just go back home b/c Tywin isn't going to stretch his forces too far. Riverlands and North are safe and separate Kingdom. Worry about the peace later.

Stannis can be summed up by his treatment of Davos. He raised him to Knighthood, Lordship, and Hand of the King based upon his leal service and good deeds. He also shortened his fingers for his crimes at the same time. By ADwD Stannis is becoming a lot more flexible.

 

[HRoi]

i dunno, if someone beheaded my father you better believe i'm coming down there to **** **** up. not saying it wasn't dumb in the strategic sense, just saying Robb's actions are completely understandable from a human perspective. what's not understandable is why he spells his name with two b's

 

[JustChris]



Btw, Robert might have been steel but he sure had a thick coating of copper as he tarnished pretty badly.

Well, even the best of swords will rust if not properly maintained. Imagine if Robert had a group of advisers that actually wanted to do the right thing, rather than backstab and engage in petty crap. He might not have turned into a drunk who did all his thinking with his "warhammer."

I respect Stannis more than any of the other claimants. Renly was a douche to try to step around his older brother. Joffrey isn't exactly the monster portrayed on the show, but he's not far behind given what he did to Sansa and others. Didn't he torture animals too? Balon is just annoying. I can't stand the Iron Born chapters on Pyke. And, Robb is an idiot. Sure, be King in the North. But, once you leave the King's Peace stay in the North. Why do all that damage. Your father isn't coming back. The Crown is not trying to march up the Neck. Once Stannis attacks KL you might as well just go back home b/c Tywin isn't going to stretch his forces too far. Riverlands and North are safe and separate Kingdom. Worry about the peace later.

Stannis can be summed up by his treatment of Davos. He raised him to Knighthood, Lordship, and Hand of the King based upon his leal service and good deeds. He also shortened his fingers for his crimes at the same time. By ADwD Stannis is becoming a lot more flexible.

Joffrey is most definitely the monster portrayed on the show. He has no redeeming qualities, none. Name a single thing he did in the books that wasn't utterly despicable. Aside from possibly the Bastard, he may be the only purely evil character in all of Westeros. And Robb's problem was just that he was a real blue flame special. Young, dumb and full of ***...

 

[scurvyfreedman]



Well, even the best of swords will rust if not properly maintained. Imagine if Robert had a group of advisers that actually wanted to do the right thing, rather than backstab and engage in petty crap. He might not have turned into a drunk who did all his thinking with his "warhammer."
Joffrey is most definitely the monster portrayed on the show. He has no redeeming qualities, none. Name a single thing he did in the books that wasn't utterly despicable. Aside from possibly the Bastard, he may be the only purely evil character in all of Westeros. And Robb's problem was just that he was a real blue flame special. Young, dumb and full of ***...

Gregor Clegane also qualifies.

 

[dlm4114]



Yes, the first he is Stannis.

But, the second piece is that the Robert probably couldn't have held the throne against the Lannisters. Tywin always had the largest host and the ability to "seize the throne." But, Robert was King even though Twyin could have seized the throne. Tywin could have preserved the throne for Aerys too. But, Aerys had mocked him when he suggested Cersei marry Rhaegar. So, Tywin stayed out of the conflict when Robert first rose against the crown. Tywin was also the richest and had as good a claim as any once Aerys was dispatched. It was called Robert's Rebellion only because he was the new king. But, it was truly an Arryn rebellion.

Jon Arryn and his wards. Hoster Tully joined b/c the Starks were now linked to the Tullys through Ned honoring his brother's engagement. Jon Arryn could have been King. Ned could have been King. If Jon Arryn hadn't incited Robert and Ned there's no way there would have been a rebellion in the first place. Ned would have accepted the King's death sentence for his brother and father. Robert might have gripped, but he didn't go to KL to retrieve his fiancee like Brandon Stark to retrieve his sister. He wasn't that rash.

Yes, Robert was crowned but he wasn't the one who seized the throne. He was essentially selected by the others who worked together to overthrow the Mad King. And, in retrospect, the Targaryen blood in the Baratheon line was used as support, but not the reason.

Disclaimer: wall of text incoming (sorry; I love this topic in the ASOIAF world)

Disagree. It was always going to be Robert. Tywin (for reasons discussed below) couldn't seize the throne by brute force, and no one would've picked him to be King because he was too old and his heir was Tyrion the Imp, which would've rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (including Tywin). Jon Arryn wouldn't have made sense as king because, again, he was too old, and he also had no heirs at that time. Also, Jon Arryn didn't even want the throne for himself.

I don't think you're framing the events leading up to RR very well. Jon Arryn didn't "incite" Robert and Ned. Aerys issued a summons to Jon Arryn demanding that he send Robert and Ned to KL to answer for the crimes of their relations, i.e., be executed. Arryn refused, instead raising his banners and dispatching Robert to the Stormlands and Ned to the North to raise an army. What followed was in large part driven by Robert and Ned -- who were more directly connected to the conflict -- more than it was JA, as the major turning points of the war were Ned's lifting the siege of Storm's End (big ups to Stan the Man), which secured the Redwynes and Tyrells, and Robert's ruby-rattling warhammer to Rhaegar's chest on the Trident (which had the added bonus of securing a strategic location). At this point the war is effectively over. Tywin does take KL, but really only as a formality... at best you can credit him with some (elementary for him) strategic thinking, but it was really more opportunistic than anything. It definitely didn't have anything to do with the strength of his host, or really even the depth of his pockets.

And -- are you sure Tywin had the largest host? Robert (and JA) commanded the Vale, all of the North, all of the Stormlands, and likely the best part (i.e. the part without the Freys) of the Riverlands. That is at least half of Westeros (and this is before they win over the Reach), and each of the big 3 in that coalition was a) his people's unquestioned leader and b) enormously loved and respected, not to mention the fact that all three bore such great affection for each other. In contrast: Tywin in the Westerlands (feared, not loved) and Mace Tyrell in the Reach (not disliked, but not loved, and in a region full of big lords who'd jump at the chance to take his place) who barely knew each other. Dorne was equivocal. The fact that Tywin had already soured on Aerys made his decision easy, but I don't think he could've stood against Robert. Remember when Ned is gearing up to tell Robert about Cersei, and sees that old glint start to shimmer in the big guy's eye? Ned's first thought is practically a wish for Tywin to try to raise his banners because he knows Robert will crush him like he did Rhaegar.

Which brings me back to my original point -- no one could have stood against Robert then, especially if you consider that he and Ned were essentially a package deal. Young Bob was a force of nature (see: the Battle of the Bells) who had the added benefit of being a hugely magnetic person. Maybe my favorite passage in the entire series is Stannis bitterly recounting how well-loved Robert was by everyone, including his enemies. It was par for the course for him to defeat someone in the morning, get drunk with him that night, and march right into battle with him the next day, as though such a series of events constituted the normal progression of a war. He was the only logical choice for the throne in both theory and practice. Sorry again for the wall of text, but I love Robert's Rebellion, and Young Robert is probably my favorite character in the series.

 

[dlm4114]



Gregor Clegane also qualifies.

Devil's advocate: Joffrey is a mentally ill (cat vivisections as a toddler tend to raise some flags that you can't treat with corporal punishment), untreated, and endlessly enabled child who has spent his whole life fruitlessly trying to impress his "father" (thus the progressively worse nature of the stuff he does), Ramsay is literally psychotic and true evil requires the ability to understand the harm you are inflicting, and Gregor's moral compass broke under the pressure of constant migraines and uncontrolled growth caused by a malignant brain tumor that he has spent years self-medicating with increasingly dangerous amounts of a Schedule I painkiller.

Just out of curiosity -- why do so many ASOIAF threads end up including a discussion about who (if anyone) is "purely" good or evil?

 

[grundletaint]

Whatever happened with the smoke baby the ginger birthed? Did it just dissipate after killing dude?

 

[chogall]



Whatever happened with the smoke baby the ginger birthed? Did it just dissipate after killing dude?

Thought so. One *** shot per life.