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OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by Piobaire, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. scurvyfreedman

    scurvyfreedman Distinguished Member

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    Good stuff. But, as you said, Arryn raised his banners and sent Robert and Ned to raise armies. Without his leadership it wouldn't have happened. Lord Hoster was obviously suggesting restraint initially, because he didn't want Brandon and his party going to KL to demand Rhaegar.

    All that said, I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that Robert would be king when Aerys was ultimately deposed. I think he would have been fine had it been Jon Arryn, even without an heir. He could have named Robert his heir for whatever it was worth. It was a pick when all was said and done. Robert was not opposed to being king and he did have Targ blood, so he was heir to the throne that way- although not truly with Viserys and Daenarys alive. Ned seemed opposed to being king. His father's Southron ambitions appeared to have soured him on engagement. After the Greyjoy rebellion he completely withdrew from the other Kingdoms and remained in the North. He didn't even have marriage pacts arranged for his heir who was of marrying age or his bastard who was as well.
     


  2. dlm4114

    dlm4114 Senior Member

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    You took the words right out of my mouth about Ned; well said. Doesn't he even say that to Robert when they're leaving Winterfell -- "my father marched south once...," or something to that effect? I also always thought Jaime's reminiscing about the scene in the Throne Room after Aerys' death was interesting, because if anyone really *couldn't* take the throne at that time, it was him, yet there he was when Ned burst through the doors (interestingly, seated in the same style Ned would later find himself interred beneath Winterfell).

    That's a really good point about Ned having nothing set up for Robb, especially when you consider that the entire purpose of Robert's trip to the North was to set up Joffrey and Sansa, both of whom are Robb's junior. Do you have any thoughts on that?
     


  3. HRoi

    HRoi Stylish Dinosaur

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    Robb was his heir, no? To Winterfell and dominion of the north. Maybe he planned to take care of Robb's marriage after he further cemented his family ties with the royal family, possibly to one of his strongest bannermen.

    It would have been hilarious to learn that Ned was planning to marry Robb to a Frey
     


  4. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Stylish Dinosaur

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    lolwut?
     


  5. lefty

    lefty Distinguished Member

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    He's a touch more rounded in the books. He comes across as a sniveling and cowardly kid who defaults to cruelty than an out-and-out sadist.

    The show ups his sadisim; the Ros thing for example.

    lefty
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013


  6. munchausen

    munchausen Distinguished Member

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    You don't see him do anything quite as bad as the Ros thing in the books, but it's made very clear that once he's out from under his family's thumb, he's going to be a terror. Tyrion says he's the next Aerys, and that doesn't seem far off. Joffrey has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. If he ever had a POV chapter, I would imagine most people wouldn't even get through it without getting sick.

    In a sense, I wish that they had gotten Robb's and Joff's death into the same season. They are pretty close together, chronologically and pagewise, and there's a theme to them: that all of your expectations are going to be overturned right now. Robb isn't the hero and Joffrey's not the villain. Their actions set this into motion but they are going to die futile, meaningless deaths for things that have nothing to do with the war.

    You wanna know who the real players are here?: well, it's probably the dragons and the white walkers, but if you're talking about people then I think the whole story comes down to Varys vs. Littlefinger, and almost all of it happens behind the scenes.
     


  7. in stitches

    in stitches Kung Joo Moderator

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    + to joffrey being a piece of shit through and through.


    i also was hoping those deaths would be one on top of the next, but i understand as a TV show they didnt want to blow the whole book 3 load in one season, they needed some epic-ness for next season.

    considering it is a fantasy novel, which to date (in the show anyways) has not really leaned on a whole lot of fantasy, mostly politics, with a few neat tricks here and there, i think it would be great if the REAL players here were dragons and white walkers. and the show certainly seems to be leading there with all its focus on dany, and especially RPs reaction to the letter from beyond the wall.

    i really hope that the story does not come down to varys and littlefinger, on the people side. particularly littlefinger. i hope LF dies tbh, i think he is a slimy ewwy worm. i have high hopes for tyrion (as does varys it seems, so i guess i can live with varys being a major player if he goes hand in hand with tyrion). as well, i am hoping the introduction of the martells will prove to be awesome.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013


  8. JustChris

    JustChris Senior Member

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    True. Forgot about him.
    Though he gets his brain wiped and turns into a massive golem, so that kind of negates him for future consideration.



    Because so few characters qualify for either designation. We barely managed to come up with 3 names in the evil category; find me a single one for the purely good category, because I'm coming up blank on that score...



    In the book, there was an anecdote about how one of the kitchen maids told Joffrey that a cat was pregnant and had "kittens in her belly" or something to that effect. So he sliced open the cat to see the kittens and show them to "dad" King Robert. Naturally, Robert beat the hell out of him for being a twisted little freak, which probably exacerbated his being a twisted little freak. This probably will never make it into the show, since his sociopathic behavior is well established at this point, and frankly, who wants to see or hear about that anyway?
     


  9. dlm4114

    dlm4114 Senior Member

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    Oh, yeah -- that was my point. I think that it's probably/arguably the point of the entire series. The part of the convo that I didn't get at first was lots of people seem to think that it was important to plumb the extent of a character's purity before moving on about something else. Although now that I think of it, it is a pretty important idea in fantasy in general, in the tradition of LOTR and such.
     


  10. scurvyfreedman

    scurvyfreedman Distinguished Member

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    Ser Barristan WoW chapters:

    I had mentioned he had two chapters, but realized they weren't in the link I posted the other day. Here are the summaries- Don't read if you haven't finished ADwD, they won't make the least bit of sense and they will spoil plot as well.

    [GRRM announced that he would read two new chapters, even though he wonders why he is giving more and more of the next book away.]

    SER BARRISTAN I

    The chapter begins with a gory description of the bodies of plague victims being thrown into the city by the trebuchets. Only the northern districts across the river are far enough away to avoid being hit.

    Barristan rides into the large market by the western gate wearing his new Queensguard armor and riding the silver horse that Drogo gave to Dany. He feels that this is presumptuous, but thinks that even while the queen is missing it is important to have some symbol of her around to improve morale. Three of his lads ride with him: Tumco Lho, Larraq, and the Red Lamb.

    In the marketplace (featuring landmarks like the statue of the chainmaker and the spire of skulls), at the “hour of the wolf,” the main forces that will participate in the attack gather. There are five thousand unsullied, the Storm Crows, a ragged band of about twenty dothraki and the pitfighters. The Shavepate’s beasts are manning the city walls in place of the unsullied. They will serve as the city’s last line of protection if Barristan’s attack fails and Dany has not returned.

    The attack will leave from three gates (north, south, and west), but Barristan will lead the charge against the main Yunkai’i forces directly to the west. Barristan thinks that the attack is against all of his instincts, as the basic numbers are against them and success hinges on trusting sellswords -- in particular, trusting the in the Tattered Prince’s greed.

    He meets with his commanders (including the Widower, Jokin, Grey Worm, and some of the pitfighters). Their plan is to lead with the horse and flank the defending legions, taking out the trebuchets and burning the pavilions. The pitfighters will advance after the horse and focus on intimidation and slaughter. Finally, the unsullied will line up outside the gate, which should be successful if the Yunkai’i don’t mount an immediate counterattack.

    Barristan reminds the commanders that they must retreat or advance when they hear the Red Lamb blow the horn. The Windower asks what to do if there is no horn blast -- that is, if Barristan and his lads are all dead. Barristan knows that this is likely, as he intends to be first through the lines of the Yunkai’i, so he just says that in that case, the Widower will be second in command. Barristan then remembers that Lord Commander Hightower had once told him to never speak of defeat before a battle, since the gods might be listening.

    It will be dawn soon. Someone says “A red dawn,” and Barristan thinks “A dragon dawn.” Previously, he had prayed to each of the seven for various things, ending with a plea to the stranger for mercy. Though he knows all men must die eventually, Barristan would like to live through the day.

    More bodies fall from the sky. Barristan notices Tumco Lho’s reaction and sees that the lad fears the pale more more than the foes outside the gates. Barristan then gives a stirring pep talk about how every man fears every battle. At first, the Red Lamb is defiant, saying that doesn’t fear death because at that point he’ll get to meet the Great Shepherd -- when he plans to break his shepherd’s crook in two and castigate the shepherd for creating such a peaceful people in such a violent world.

    Barristan continues his lecture, saying that there is “nothing more terrible, nothing more glorious, nothing more absurd” than war. Even Barristan admits that he shat his pants in his first battle. He is interrupted by a murmur among the soldiers -- a fire is lit at the harpy on top of one of the pyramids, presumably to signal the men at each gate to begin the attack. The gate opens and Barristan sounds the call to attack.

    [At this point he says there will be a Victarion and Tyrion chapter (perhaps the ones he has already read), in some order, at which point we return to...]

    SER BARRISTAN II

    His gut feels twisted from nervousness as he rides through the gates. He knows that the feeling will go away when time slows down in the chaos of battle. Dany’s horse is easily outpacing the lads and the rest of the cavalry; Barristan is pleased because he intends to outrun the Widower and strike the first blow. The Yunkai’i are totally unprepared and Barristan closes in on the Harridan, the largest of the trebuchets. The stormcrows take up the cry, “Daario!” and “Stormcrows, fly!” Barristan thinks that he will never again doubt the valor of sellswords.

    There are only thirty yards between the horse and the Yunkai’i legions by the time any defense is mounted. The air fills with arrows. A squire for the stormcrows is killed, and a bolt pierces Barristan’s shield. There are three horn blasts and the pitfighters emerge from the gate behind them.

    Barristan glances back to see the pitfighters. There are about two hundred of them, but they make enough noise for two thousand. One woman stands out, wearing nothing but greaves, sandals, a chainmail skirt, and a python. Barristan is a bit shocked and, watching her breasts bouncing around, thinks that this day is sure to be her last. The pitfighters are mostly shouting “Loraq!” and “Hizdar!” but some do call out “Danaerys!” Larraq is hit in the chest with an arrow, bringing Barristan’s attention forward, but the squire keeps the banners held high and shakes it off.

    Barristan has reached the Harridan, but a Ghiscari legion six thousand strong has lined up to protect the huge trebuchet. They are six ranks deep -- the first rank kneels and holds their spears pointing out and up, the second rank stands and holds their spears out at waist height, and and the third rank holds the spears out on their shoulders. The rest have small throwing spears and are ready to step forward when their comrades fall.

    Barristan knows that a maester’s chain is only as strong as his weakest link, and identifies the companies of the Yunkish lords as the weakest of his immediate foes, certainly weaker than the slave legions. In particular, Barristan targets the Little Pigeon and his herons. The slaves chosen to be herons were freakishly tall before they were put on stilts, and wear pink scales and feathers and steel beaks. But Barristan sees that they will be blind because of the dawn rising over the city, and like to break ranks easily, so Barristan turns away from the legion guarding the trebuchet at the last minute and heads for the herons.

    He cuts the head off of one of the herons and his lads join the fray. Dany’s horse knocks a heron into three others and they all fall over. In a moment, the herons are scattering and running away, led by the Little Pigeon himself. Unfortunately for the Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says “I came for blood, not gold” and knocks in the Little Pigeon’s head with his mace, splattering blood all over Barristan and Dany’s silver horse.

    The unsullied begin marching through the gates, and Barristan sees that the Yunkai’i have missed their chance to effectively launch a counterattack. As he watches more of the slave legions get slaughtered, mostly those who were chained together and could not retreat, he wonders where the sellsword companies like the treacherous Second Sons have gone. The unsullied finish lining up outside the gates, implacable even when one of their own number falls with a crossbow bolt to the neck.

    Tumco draws Barristan’s attention to the bay, asking “Why are there so many ships?” Barristan remembers that yesterday there were twenty, but now there are thrice that many. His heart sinks when he reasons that the ships from Volantis must have arrived, but then sees that some of the ships are crashing together.

    He asks Tumco, whose young eyes can see more clearly, to identify the banners. Tumco says “Squids, big squids. Like in the Basilisk Isles, where sometimes they drag whole ships down.” Barristan replies, “Where I’m from, we call them krakens.”

    Realizing that the Greyjoys have arrived, his first thought is “Has Balon joined with Joffrey, or the Starks?” But he realizes that he’s heard that Balon is dead, and wonders if this has something to do with the Balon’s son, the boy who was a ward of the Starks. He sees that ironmen are coming ashore, fighting the Yunkish, and says, surprised, “They are on our side!” The sellswords did not come to meet his charge because they were already preoccupied with the ironborn!

    Barristan is almost gleeful. “It’s like Baelor Breakspear and Prince Maekar, the hammer and the anvil. We have them! We have them!”

    [GRRM pointed out that these were, of course, Victarion's men and made a comment about Tyrion currently being quite miserable.]
     


  11. Piobaire

    Piobaire Not left of center?

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    Did the book not have the same scene were Joffery made Sasha kiss the decapitated, tarred, and rotting head of her father and then tell her there's a spot for Robb after pointing out all the Northmen around her father's head that she knew? If that does not make someone out to be a psychopath I do not know what does and I'm pretty sure that was in the book as well as the series. I think she was about to push Joffery off the wall, and probably toss herself off after, but the Hound read her mind and stopped her.
     


  12. in stitches

    in stitches Kung Joo Moderator

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    iirc, they did not have her kiss it, just stare at it.

    the hound has been good to sansa.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013


  13. scurvyfreedman

    scurvyfreedman Distinguished Member

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    Some people refer to them as San-San. Sandor and Sansa have a very complicated relationship. His drunk speeches to her are one of the highlights of A Clash of Kings. It's in one of those speeches, after she thanks him (thank you Ser) for either saving her from the Kingsguard beating at the orders of Joffrey or the rape by the mob, he tells her how he was burned and why he hates Knights - "bugger on your Ser"; that she should give up her fanciful belief that Knights protect the weak - his brother was made a Knight after burning his face for playing with a wooden knight toy. His brother, who has raped and killed innocents his whole life and probably killed their parents so he could inherit the Keep and properties. At that point you start to feel for him. He follows it up with- if I ever find out you told someone about this I'll kill you.----

    ---And yet they stole that explanation and gave it to Littlefinger in Season 1. If Sandor knew Littlefinger knew that, Littlefinger would be dead. Nobody knows that story except Gregor and Sandor.

    But, yes, he saves her from beatings, rape, probable death, and offers to rescue her by taking her home to Winterfell. He also tells her to forget her fantasies and see the world for what it is. All he wants in return is a song.

    *Sandor is my 2nd or 3rd favorite character. It bounces back and forth b/w him and Ser Barristan for #2. Arya being #1.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013


  14. munchausen

    munchausen Distinguished Member

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    Davos. The guy takes the high road every time. So do all of the Stark men, really.
     


  15. dlm4114

    dlm4114 Senior Member

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    Davos cheats on his wife all the time and Ned's "honor" got him killed and directly endangered the life of his daughter (which he knew it would). I'm pretty sure there's a strong counterargument to every character. I love Davos though. He's also one of the best cast roles on the show IMO.
     


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